Great game, but I have a few questions...

[Raven_Morpheus]

Apologies, I have been using the search function but I haven't come across any definitive answers to a few questions I have re. Black Shark 1.

 

So, here goes.

 

1. I've followed the Tweak Guide Alpha (sorry I forget the name of the creator) but I'm still not happy with the framerate I'm getting.

 

My rig is this

 

AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @3.2ghz

ATI 5870 1GB

8GB RAM @ 1333mhz

Windows 7 64bit

7200rpm HDD

 

On average I'm only getting 35 fps!

 

Apart from the Tweak Guide Alpha, and buying new hardware (which I gather from some threads isn't a guarantee of good fps) is there anything else I can do (I've done a defrag and other maintenance on my PC btw) without lowering settings further than in the Tweak Guide Alpha?

 

 

2. I'm thinking of upgrading to DCS World/Black Shark 2/UH-1H Huey but given that I'm getting decidedly average/low fps in Black Shark 1, will I get even lower fps in Black Shark 2?

 

 

3. What's the point in the helmet sight? I don't have Track IR (nor Freetrack, but I do have FacetrackNOIR although it has a habit of moving even though I'm not so I don't use it), so at the moment I have the Shkval slew controls mapped to my flight stick "d-pad" hat switch, but when I try to use that in conjunction with the helmet sight and holding O it doesn't move the Shkval view, I have to use the mouse instead (and that's rather poor as it's inaccurate/twitchy in the Shkval screen), however I can move the Shkval view using the hat switch if I don't use the helmet sight and hold O.

 

So that's what I've been doing, targeting by just using my flight sticks hat switch to move the Shkval view around.

 

If I can do that I can't see the point in the helmet sight - am I missing something?

 

 

4. How do I cycle through weapons using just one button? I'd like to set one on my flight stick (Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X) (although I'm running out of buttons) so that I can cycle from cannon, to inboard pylon then to outboard pylon (or any other combination of that order, whichever is possible) - having looked through the controls list I can't immediately see if that's possible - is it?

Edited September 25, 2013 by Raven_Morpheus

[Havner]

3. I take it you use d-pad + O + HMS? Correct?

That's not the way you're supposed to.

 

The mouse from your case probably simulates head movement that's why you see it working.

 

For non HMS case you hit O once to uncage and then use just the d-pad to slew it around.

For a HMS case you need some head tracking (TIR, mouse, whatever). You enable HMS, hit and hold O and then move your head. Shkval should follow the HMS.

[Raven_Morpheus]

3. I take it you use d-pad + O + HMS? Correct?

That's not the way you're supposed to.

 

That's what I've tried yes.

 

The mouse from your case probably simulates head movement that's why you see it working.

 

Yes it does do the head movement.

 

For non HMS case you hit O once to uncage and then use just the d-pad to slew it around.

 

Yes, that's what I now do after finding out "d-pad + O + HMS" doesn't work.

 

For a HMS case you need some head tracking (TIR, mouse, whatever). You enable HMS, hit and hold O and then move your head. Shkval should follow the HMS.

 

So basically the helmet sight is purely there (besides simulating the real thing) for people who have head tracking (or for those who wish to use the mouse) and there is no loss in not using it?

[Havner]

So basically the helmet sight is purely there (besides simulating the real thing) for people who have head tracking (or for those who wish to use the mouse) and there is no loss in not using it?

 

Well, yes, it simulates something that's on your head to be used by moving it :-) You can slew without it. It's just slower.

[Raven_Morpheus]

Well, yes, it simulates something that's on your head to be used by moving it :-) You can slew without it. It's just slower.

 

 

Cool. That's what I thought. I tried slewing it with the helmet sight, but using my mouse, and it was slower than using just the d-pad and no helmet sight, because of the inaccurate/twitchy mouse movement when looking at the Shkval screen and trying to make small adjustments - I couldn't get the aiming box on target at all using the mouse.

 

I've tried FacetrackNOIR in this game also, as well as several others, and it's fairly useless most of the time because it moves even if I'm not and has a habit of stopping functioning altogether, so using a head track system for me is not possible (unless I shell out for TrackIR or DIY it with Freetrack).

 

Using the d-pad on it's own to slew actually seems to work quite well for me, so far.

[Havner]

I tried slewing it with the helmet sight, but using my mouse, and it was slower than using just the d-pad and no helmet sight, because of the inaccurate/twitchy mouse movement when looking at the Shkval screen and trying to make small adjustments - I couldn't get the aiming box on target at all using the mouse.

 

I don't think you're supposed to get it over the target precisely by using the head (either head tracking or mouse) but close to the target and then use the collective slew commands for adjustments.

 

I use HMS mostly in cases when I'm supposed to slew the shkval by large amounts. Eg. from one side to another.

[ShuRugal]

On average I'm only getting 35 fps!

 

why does everyone bitch about 35 FPS like it's some terrifyingly low number? the human eye can only resolve input at a rate of approximately 15-20 FPS anyway, 30 is more than adequate, and any more than that is just gratuitous.

[Fishbreath]

why does everyone bitch about 35 FPS like it's some terrifyingly low number? the human eye can only resolve input at a rate of approximately 15-20 FPS anyway, 30 is more than adequate, and any more than that is just gratuitous.

 

This is wrong for every application except for recorded live-action, or simulations of recorded live-action video. A frame in film represents a period of time, and interframe blur is an adequate simulation of smoothness. In a game, a frame is a moment in time. It's like The Hobbit in high frame rate, but on steroids—there is no blur whatsoever for the brain to interpret as smoothness, and even games with a 'blur' feature are just applying a filter to individual frames, which, as players of Arma will tell you, does not necessarily make them look smooth.

 

There are also some complications with brightness and light levels, but the average human can easily distinguish between a game at 30 frames per second and a game at 60 frames per second, and a lot of people will notice the difference between a game at 60 frames per second and a game at 120 frames per second (though only through overall smoothness, if their monitors aren't capable of more than 60 hertz of refresh).

[humptydumpty]

Apologies, I have been using the search function but I haven't come across any definitive answers to a few questions I have re. Black Shark 1.

 

So, here goes.

 

1. I've followed the Tweak Guide Alpha (sorry I forget the name of the creator) but I'm still not happy with the framerate I'm getting.

 

My rig is this

 

AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @3.2ghz

ATI 5870 1GB

8GB RAM @ 1333mhz

Windows 7 64bit

7200rpm HDD

 

On average I'm only getting 35 fps!

 

Apart from the Tweak Guide Alpha, and buying new hardware (which I gather from some threads isn't a guarantee of good fps) is there anything else I can do (I've done a defrag and other maintenance on my PC btw) without lowering settings further than in the Tweak Guide Alpha?

 

 

2. I'm thinking of upgrading to DCS World/Black Shark 2/UH-1H Huey but given that I'm getting decidedly average/low fps in Black Shark 1, will I get even lower fps in Black Shark 2?

 

 

3. What's the point in the helmet sight? I don't have Track IR (nor Freetrack, but I do have FacetrackNOIR although it has a habit of moving even though I'm not so I don't use it), so at the moment I have the Shkval slew controls mapped to my flight stick "d-pad" hat switch, but when I try to use that in conjunction with the helmet sight and holding O it doesn't move the Shkval view, I have to use the mouse instead (and that's rather poor as it's inaccurate/twitchy in the Shkval screen), however I can move the Shkval view using the hat switch if I don't use the helmet sight and hold O.

 

So that's what I've been doing, targeting by just using my flight sticks hat switch to move the Shkval view around.

 

If I can do that I can't see the point in the helmet sight - am I missing something?

 

 

4. How do I cycle through weapons using just one button? I'd like to set one on my flight stick (Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X) (although I'm running out of buttons) so that I can cycle from cannon, to inboard pylon then to outboard pylon (or any other combination of that order, whichever is possible) - having looked through the controls list I can't immediately see if that's possible - is it?

 

My rig is :

 

AMD 960T

4 GB DDR3

HD 7750 2 GB

 

I doing good but don't know about the FPS but the game plays smooth. I also use Eyefinity @3200x900 no issues but I play at mid-sets in eyefinity and feel no difference. Of course all CCC settings are on default.

 

BTW I am using Facetracknoir and perfectly configured and it does have it moments of being naughty. If you want I can give all my ini files and you could try and tweak it to your needs.

 

Keep the camera facing up and and don't give too much of light on your face.

[Raven_Morpheus]

My rig is :

 

AMD 960T

4 GB DDR3

HD 7750 2 GB

 

I doing good but don't know about the FPS but the game plays smooth. I also use Eyefinity @3200x900 no issues but I play at mid-sets in eyefinity and feel no difference. Of course all CCC settings are on default.

 

BTW I am using Facetracknoir and perfectly configured and it does have it moments of being naughty. If you want I can give all my ini files and you could try and tweak it to your needs.

 

Keep the camera facing up and and don't give too much of light on your face.

 

 

Thanks, that might be helpful.

 

I'm only running mine at 1920x1080 on a single monitor.

 

I can't reduce the resolution for an fps gain because I get a black border around the edge due to ATI's drivers not applying image scaling properly in Windows 7, and I've tried all the old wives tales about reducing resolution to lower than native etc. to resolve it but it just doesn't seem to work.

 

I'm not complaining that I only get 35fps on average, it actually plays nice and smooth so far. I just think that for a game that is 5ish years old I should be getting more from it.

 

One thing I've learnt from racing game such as GT Legends, GTR2 and rFactor is that higher fps makes you better because the higher framerate allows you to react more quickly, or at least doesn't delay your inputs, or something like that - hence the reason I'm looking for more fps in DCS Black Shark 1, so that I can react quickly if I need to.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Raven_Morpheus

[humptydumpty]

Thanks, that might be helpful.

 

I'm only running mine at 1920x1080 on a single monitor.

 

I can't reduce the resolution for an fps gain because I get a black border around the edge due to ATI's drivers not applying image scaling properly in Windows 7, and I've tried all the old wives tales about reducing resolution to lower than native etc. to resolve it but it just doesn't seem to work.

 

I'm not complaining that I only get 35fps on average, it actually plays nice and smooth so far. I just think that for a game that is 5ish years old I should be getting more from it.

 

One thing I've learnt from racing game such as GT Legends, GTR2 and rFactor is that higher fps makes you better because the higher framerate allows you to react more quickly, or at least doesn't delay your inputs, or something like that - hence the reason I'm looking for more fps in DCS Black Shark 1, so that I can react quickly if I need to.

 

I will upload or pm you the ini files later today. I feel the reason for having higher fps is because of the objects in the game. They need to be rendered , so if you are pulling 30-35 fps and there objects which are coming then the renderer takes some time i.e. CPU or GPU so we get a throttling , but thats my opinion.

[roob]

why does everyone bitch about 35 FPS like it's some terrifyingly low number? the human eye can only resolve input at a rate of approximately 15-20 FPS anyway, 30 is more than adequate, and any more than that is just gratuitous.

 

Because there's something wrong with your eyes. And if you can't see it you can't see it (and good for you, saves money! :p), but there's no way 30 FPS is adequate. 30 FPS is tolerable, nothing else. The "human eye can only"-argument is in this case a very twisted fact and shouldn't be used here. 60 FPS on a 60Hz monitor (or much rather 120 FPS on a 120Hz monitor) is like lotion for the eyes. The motions are just more fluent.

 

1. More on-topic though, OP, I'm very much certain it's your CPU that's holding you back. I guess the GPU isn't far from being pushed to it's limit either. I think disabling (or reducing visibility of) objects such as houses, trees etc. can gain you a decent couple of FPS, but then playability (esp. with the helicopters) suffers.

 

 

3. Well aside from the obvious benefits with Track-IR, you can quickly get your guns/shkval pointing to the target/target area. Very useful when that Stinger-soldier pops up behind the hill below you, for instance :)

[AtaliaA1]

CPU isn't an issue with IronMaiden so hard to believe it would be for him.

 

The GPU is the difference between the systems 2Gigs of GPU Ram and 1Gig.

[number3]

You may be able to squeeze out a couple or more frames if you use the point tracker module for FactTrackNoIr as it is the least CPU intensive of the tracker modules

 

http://sourceforge.net/p/facetracknoir/wiki/PointTracker/

 

Advantages

The great advantage of IR-tracking compared to face-tracking is the fact that only a few points (mostly 3 IR-leds) need to be tracked. This requires much less CPU-power than face-tracking. So this will offer either a lower CPU-load (giving 'the game' more power) or the tracking-frequency can be higher (giving higher accuracy).

[shagrat]

why does everyone bitch about 35 FPS like it's some terrifyingly low number? the human eye can only resolve input at a rate of approximately 15-20 FPS anyway, 30 is more than adequate, and any more than that is just gratuitous.

See this link for some really good thoughts about FPS and the difference for human eyesight in various situations.

It is right from a biological point of view inthat way, that the "brain is tricked" into perceiving 24+ "pictures per second" as motion, but that is only under very specific conditions. Say, don't move your head, 1/24th second between pictures exactly and rock solid, no major lighting changes in the scene etc.

 

Let's say, 30 fps in a simulation is minimum, especially when using a head tracker.

[Yurgon]

I think these have not been answered yet, have they?

 

2. I'm thinking of upgrading to DCS World/Black Shark 2/UH-1H Huey but given that I'm getting decidedly average/low fps in Black Shark 1, will I get even lower fps in Black Shark 2?

 

I could play BS1 on my old rig somewhat smoothly but it just wouldn't give me decent framerates with BS2 or the Hog. I then upgraded to an i7 2600K and all the components to go with it and have, on average, something between 30 and 40 fps in BS2 and the other modules.

 

If your computer already struggles with BS1, it sounds like it won't be too happy about BS2. :(

 

On a side note, I'm sure there is vast potential for optimization in DCS, but that doesn't seem to be ED's focus right now.

 

4. How do I cycle through weapons using just one button? I'd like to set one on my flight stick (Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X) (although I'm running out of buttons) so that I can cycle from cannon, to inboard pylon then to outboard pylon (or any other combination of that order, whichever is possible) - having looked through the controls list I can't immediately see if that's possible - is it?

 

Depending on the software you use for the stick, you could program a button to issue a sequence of commands, one part of the sequence for each button press.

 

With the Ka-50, this sequence could be something like:

Uncage Shkval -> select outer stations -> select inner stations -> select cannon -> deselect cannon -> reset targeting (and then repeat the sequence).

 

I don't know which kind of software comes with the T-Flight Hotas X and whether it supports this kind of programming. TARGET might be a bit overkill, but it's definitely possible with it, and I think it supports the T-Flight Hotas X.

 

Ah, here we go, it's called a "sequence" in TARGET (from the "Script Editor Basics" documentation):

 

MapKey(&Joystick, S1, SEQ('a', 'b', 'c'));

 

(On consecutive presses of button S1 on the Joystick, the characters "a", "b" and "c" are sent and then the sequence starts all over again)

[SFAL]

So all got sorted apart why the HMD is there for?!

 

You use the HMD in conjunction with the uncage/designate

 

Keep holding down designate when HMD is on and the Shkval will look there. This is cupled with automatic gun turn and you can fight helicopters close up. Also soft skins in convoys

[Raven_Morpheus]

I think these have not been answered yet, have they?

 

 

 

I could play BS1 on my old rig somewhat smoothly but it just wouldn't give me decent framerates with BS2 or the Hog. I then upgraded to an i7 2600K and all the components to go with it and have, on average, something between 30 and 40 fps in BS2 and the other modules.

 

If your computer already struggles with BS1, it sounds like it won't be too happy about BS2. :(

 

On a side note, I'm sure there is vast potential for optimization in DCS, but that doesn't seem to be ED's focus right now.

 

Hmm yeah, I thought as much. Real shame because I was looking at the Huey and drooling...

 

I was playing the Altitude mission yesterday (and failed, dunno what happened but all of a sudden my bird started rotating and then fell out of the sky, I had all the de-icers on as well. I checked and I didn't look as though I'd been hit?!) Anyway I was getting 18-20 fps at the start at the airfield but 50-60 when I got over the mountain area.

 

In the mission from the tutorial "Or: A Dummy's Guide to DCS: Black Shark" that I've been playing the past few days to familiarise myself with the game (I bought the game about a year ago, but failed to even get the cannon to fire when I first played the game and I shelved it) from what I notice using the ingame counter I only get on average 35 fps, more around 40 at the helipad when stationary and 25 fps at minimum in some parts of the mission.

 

Still playable, I don't notice any input lag, but more fps would be better.

 

 

I don't know which kind of software comes with the T-Flight Hotas X and whether it supports this kind of programming. TARGET might be a bit overkill, but it's definitely possible with it, and I think it supports the T-Flight Hotas X.

 

The T-flight HOTAS X comes with no software to speak of, just a control panel snap-in that shows you if the axis/buttons are working and a mapping function on the actual stick itself so you can remap buttons and axis (i.e swap L1 for L2, or X axis for Y axis).

 

 

Ah, here we go, it's called a "sequence" in TARGET (from the "Script Editor Basics" documentation):

 

MapKey(&Joystick, S1, SEQ('a', 'b', 'c'));

(On consecutive presses of button S1 on the Joystick, the characters "a", "b" and "c" are sent and then the sequence starts all over again)

 

 

Sounds interesting, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for - 1 button to cycle through the 3 weapons (inner pylon, outer pylon and cannon). I'll go look for some more info on TARGET.

 

Currently I've remapped the buttons on my stick so I have the 3 buttons on the side of the throttle as the weapons, and collective brake and uncage Shkval (O) on the buttons on the front of the throttle, I'm happy with that but I'm sure I could find 2 other functions I could map to the stick/throttle, so freeing up 2 buttons would be great...

 

EDIT - looks like the TARGET software doesn't support the el-cheapo T-Flight HOTAS X, just the Thrustmaster T16000M stick and the more expensive HOTAS like the Cougar and Warthog. Shame, that would have been perfect.

 

 

 

One other thing, and something rather annoying, is that every now and then my joystick stops responding, mostly seems to happen after I've pressed the trim button to set trim on the stick, and/or while holding the collective brake, but then a while later (probably something like 20 seconds, I've not counted to check) it starts responding again, usually after I've been yanking it about and I then end up moving the heli wildly, and possibly linked to releasing the collective brake/moving the throttle.

 

It's not a problem with the stick itself in terms of hardware issues as far as I can tell as it's not happening in Arma 2, Arma 3 or Take on Helicopters.

 

I think I've read something about this but I can't find the threads I was reading the other day.

 

 

Anyone ever come across such behaviour, any idea why it happens, and is there anyway to solve it?

Edited September 26, 2013 by Raven_Morpheus

[Yurgon]

Hmm yeah, I thought as much. Real shame because I was looking at the Huey and drooling...

 

The current sale is still going on for another two days. If you have 20$ to spare, you could buy the Huey now and try it out. If it works okay, perfect. If not, you'll still have a valid key for when you get a new gaming PC. If you look at A-10C and Black Shark 2 prices, even during the sale they're only a little less than the (relatively new) Huey and the (brand new) Mi-8, meaning your loss would be relatively small even if you can't play the sim for some time to come.

 

I was playing the Altitude mission yesterday (and failed, dunno what happened but all of a sudden my bird started rotating and then fell out of the sky, I had all the de-icers on as well.

 

The most important de-icing systems are Rotor de-icing and Engine de-icing. Both have their switches on the overhead panel. Are you sure both were set to on and the Engine de-icing-switch wasn't just set to the dust-protection setting? If all were okay, you could go to The Rookie Thread and post a track of your flight. I'm sure someone will have an answer.

 

EDIT - looks like the TARGET software doesn't support the el-cheapo T-Flight HOTAS X, just the Thrustmaster T16000M stick and the more expensive HOTAS like the Cougar and Warthog. Shame, that would have been perfect.

 

Too bad, sorry. I had been looking for a list of supported controllers but didn't find one and thought that all more or less current Thrustmaster controllers could be managed by TARGET.

 

One other thing, and something rather annoying, is that every now and then my joystick stops responding, mostly seems to happen after I've pressed the trim button [...]

 

Do you have "Central position trimmer mode" checked in the options?

 

With this option checked, cyclic and rudder are completely locked out until both cyclic and rudder are physically centered in the real world, so you have to return the stick to its center position and make sure to also let the twist grip return to center (or rudder pedals, if you have them).

 

Just make it a habit to center the stick right after trimming. It becomes muscle memory quite quickly once you know about it. :)

 

I don't think the collective brake has anything to do with this.

[Raven_Morpheus]

The current sale is still going on for another two days. If you have 20$ to spare, you could buy the Huey now and try it out. If it works okay, perfect. If not, you'll still have a valid key for when you get a new gaming PC. If you look at A-10C and Black Shark 2 prices, even during the sale they're only a little less than the (relatively new) Huey and the (brand new) Mi-8, meaning your loss would be relatively small even if you can't play the sim for some time to come.

 

 

Thanks. I don't have even $20 (or in my case £12) to pay out for something that I might have to shelve for a couple of years whilst I save for a new PC.

 

The most important de-icing systems are Rotor de-icing and Engine de-icing. Both have their switches on the overhead panel. Are you sure both were set to on and the Engine de-icing-switch wasn't just set to the dust-protection setting? If all were okay, you could go to The Rookie Thread and post a track of your flight. I'm sure someone will have an answer.

 

Yeah I had those on, I figured from reading the mission notes I'd need those on so I set them on just ahead of getting to the mountain range.

 

Not really bothered though, I'll have another go at the mission some time. I'll just put it down to being a noob.

 

 

Do you have "Central position trimmer mode" checked in the options?

 

With this option checked, cyclic and rudder are completely locked out until both cyclic and rudder are physically centered in the real world, so you have to return the stick to its center position and make sure to also let the twist grip return to center (or rudder pedals, if you have them).

 

Just make it a habit to center the stick right after trimming. It becomes muscle memory quite quickly once you know about it. :)

 

I don't think the collective brake has anything to do with this.

 

 

Yes I may have that option checked. I'll bear that in mind. What happens if I turn that option off, can I then get away with not centring the pedals (I use the rocker on my T-flight HOTAS X's throttle) or stick?

[roob]

CPU isn't an issue with IronMaiden so hard to believe it would be for him.

 

The GPU is the difference between the systems 2Gigs of GPU Ram and 1Gig.

 

I guess you're right :)

 

http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/349/AMD_Phenom_II_X4_955_(125W__rev._C3__BE)_vs_AMD_Phenom_II_X4_960T.html

[Fishbreath]

Yes I may have that option checked. I'll bear that in mind. What happens if I turn that option off, can I then get away with not centring the pedals (I use the rocker on my T-flight HOTAS X's throttle) or stick?

 

Without center trimmer mode on, you have about a second (?) to re-center your physical controls before they're unlocked. I prefer that in the Huey, but I use center trimmer mode for the Shark.

[Raven_Morpheus]

Thanks for the replies guys and thanks to IronMaiden for the facetracknoir files however I don't think I'll be flying for a couple of months now...

 

I was removing the detent on the throttle of my Thrustmaster T Flight Hotas X and all was going well, but then I came to screw the base back on...

 

...and I must have had the main cable under the screw hole because I've driven a hole right through it and severed some of the wires, so now the throttle doesn't work and a couple of the buttons do odd things.

 

I can't repair the break in the wires myself either because they're too thin/small and I don't have any spare wire or solder or any tools to do it with.

 

So it looks like I'll have to save up £50 and buy a new stick or at least a throttle section with as many buttons...

 

Grrr. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Edited September 28, 2013 by Raven_Morpheus

[humptydumpty]

Thanks for the replies guys and thanks to IronMaiden for the facetracknoir files however I don't think I'll be flying for a couple of months now...

 

I was removing the detent on the throttle of my Thrustmaster T Flight Hotas X and all was going well, but then I came to screw the base back on...

 

...I must have had the main cable under the screw hole because I've driven a hole right through it and severed some of the wires, so now the throttle doesn't work and a couple of the buttons do odd things.

 

I can't repair the break in the wires myself either because they're too thin/small and I don't have any spare wire or solder or any tools to do it with.

 

So it looks like I'll have to save up £50 and buy a new stick or at least a throttle section with as many buttons...

 

Grrr.

 

Why won't you be flying ?

[Raven_Morpheus]

Throttle on the hotas x doesn't work now and a couple of the buttons register as throttle as well as their own inputs, and I can't fix it.

 

Yes I could use the keyboard, and possibly an xbox 360 gamepad, but it's just not the same.

 

Have to wait till xmas now to get a new hotas. Probably get a Saitek X45/X52 this time though.