AI in DCS

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

hello guys!

now with the kickstarter passing the 100k, we are going to finally get a sim ive ever dreamt of...:thumbup:

 

im a owner of dcs modules now for pretty much exactly one year...

im still amazed by the flight models, aircraft systems and the overall attention to detail every single time i jump into either the a10c but mainly the P51.

 

but thats by far not the only aspect which really is awesome in this sim.

dynamic weather,working seasons, a really powerfull mission editor(probably the most powerfull ive ever seen, and yet the easiest one to access), and certainly the best AI ive ever encountered in any flight sim by far...

 

its really fun to fight either the p51 or the fw190 ai planes...they know how to maintain energy, still turn tight if necessary, barrel roll out of your gunsight, trying to scissor you, and sometimes really make manouvers which can surprise you, like sudden hammerheads or diving away, trying to run for their lives on tree top level.

furthermore, its a breeze to work on missions with them, the ability to let them spawn on airfields, either on the runway or a rampstart, letting them re- and despawn, watching them following their waypoints, assign tasks to them etc...all in all this is the best ai, in the best working environment ive ever met in a flight sim.....

of course, there always will be room for improvement, but generally, from my point of view, there really is no urgent need to change anything of the AI behaviour except one thing:

 

-they are sharpshooters on every single skill level.so much that its really the only aspect of it, that can be annoying.their snapshots out of distances are really just too good for looking anything human like...

 

dont get me wrong on this please,...i never ever want to see a AI again, which is too stupid to do any evasive manouver, or shoot at all even if you place yourself right in front of it, like in clod.

but these sharpshooters can feel just as distracting...

 

i know, that this is not necessarily up to RRG, but probably more a task for ED, but some insight in this regard would still be very welcome...

RRG, Luthier, do you have any insight if this will be adressed?have you any infuence on it?

cheers

[DerHesse70]

The greatest problem for me is that the AI aircraft is not affected by damage!! Only ripping of the wings or setting it on fire will affect it.

[TimeKilla]

AI also fly an easy flight model that allows them to be unaffected by things that affect the player they can turn sharper and faster basically everything.

[AG-51_Razor]

I hope they won't be able to see through mountains, buildings or coulds either!!

[NoCarrier]

its really fun to fight either the p51 or the fw190 ai planes...they know how to maintain energy, still turn tight if necessary, barrel roll out of your gunsight, trying to scissor you, and sometimes really make manouvers which can surprise you, like sudden hammerheads or diving away, trying to run for their lives on tree top level.

You're kidding, right? Because in my experience, the DCS World dogfighting AI is dumb as a bag of nails. The only saving grace is that the AI is not subject to the same laws of physics that you are (i.e., simplified flight and damage modeling), which allows them to fly at top performance always.

 

Thinking back, Battle of Britain/Mig Alley had some of the best dogfight AI I've ever seen. The flight modeling wasn't up there with DCS now, obviously, but the AI did put up a fight. Falcon 4.0's AI is better too, as it's pretty clueless in the vertical but at least it flies with a purpose. All I see in DCS is AI opponents flailing about. That's probably those "surprise manoeuvres" you're seeing.

 

All in my not so humble opinion, of course.

[mmaruda]

One of the biggest pains of the old IL-2 series was the cheating AI using a simplified FM and having a 360 field of vision. The one currently in DCS: Mustang is better, but still not bound by the same rules as the player.

 

It's a big concern really for a WWII sim, where most of the fun comes from close range dogfighting. I would hate it if DCS 1944 became one of those "you want proper fun, play online only" sims. Especially with the recent MP stability issues I keep hearing about.

[TimeKilla]

"you want proper fun, play online only" sims. Especially with the recent MP stability issues I keep hearing about.

 

Mmm lets see hopefully the future will prove anyone wrong that thinks it might be going that way.

[SlipBall]

I've enjoyed the IL-2 series AI for many years, Clod's being the very best in my opinion(edit: original released game). I'm new to DCS, been shot at a few times but its to early for me to offer a point of view on the AI

Edited September 28, 2013 by GT 5.0

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

AI also fly an easy flight model that allows them to be unaffected by things that affect the player they can turn sharper and faster basically everything.

 

 

well, i havent seen a AI which turned sharper than me and neither faster...

[SharpeXB]

I've enjoyed the IL-2 series AI for many years, Clod's being the very best in my opinion.

Which version of CloD are you playing? I have the current unmodded Steam version and the AI is so incredibly poor it makes some of the gameplay pointless. Like when you can fly right through a formation of enemy fighters and shoot them all down and none of them even notice you are there.

[TimeKilla]

well, i havent seen a AI which turned sharper than me and neither faster...

 

Sorry this post clears it up better

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1888172&postcount=5

 

Just that the AI are subject to a simplified flight model and can outperform us, If you don't trust me have a search around the P51D forum there will be more information in there.

[Nate--IRL--]

Sorry this post clears it up better

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1888172&postcount=5

 

Just that the AI are subject to a simplified flight model and can outperform us, If you don't trust me have a search around the P51D forum there will be more information in there.

 

The AI uses the Standard Flight Model as far as I'm aware.

 

Nate

[SlipBall]

Which version of CloD are you playing? I have the current unmodded Steam version and the AI is so incredibly poor it makes some of the gameplay pointless. Like when you can fly right through a formation of enemy fighters and shoot them all down and none of them even notice you are there.

 

 

Yes you are right I'm a idiot for forgetting to say the original game. I know that the different patch versions and finally the finished game, the AI can suck at times. Given enough time the team seemed to offer us a good AI, but under pressure lack of time, well you see the out come.

 

One glaring difference between the two games that I just noticed. I had to set down my P-51 in a field because of damage. I brought her to a area with a few tree's and shut her down and waited. To my surprise the Dora broke off pursuit and I was no longer a target. In Clod the AI would have made a staffing pass or 2 to finish me off...I'm not sure which I like better, I guess historically either one is correct. :D

Edited September 28, 2013 by GT 5.0

[Bucic]

The AI uses the Standard Flight Model as far as I'm aware.

 

Nate

This is reaaally bad.

[sobek]

This is reaaally bad.

 

It's the only FM that AI can handle without crippling your CPU.

[Nate--IRL--]

This is reaaally bad.

 

Why?

 

Nate

[Weta43]

This is reaaally bad.

 

Again - why ?

It's the same FM system the FC aircraft have always had (that the fast movers still have).

 

Despite what was claimed above, as far as the FM goes, the AI have the same performance boundaries as player aircraft - the only differences in terms of performance are that they can consistently reach them, where players often 'make mistakes' - and what happens at the boundaries of the envelope - e.g. what happens during stalls - but not the conditions at which the stall is entered.

 

You might argue that the AI should also randomly make mistakes, but that's a different issue.

[Mysticpuma]

The best Ai I ever flew against was in Battle of Britan:Wings of Victory II.

The Ai coder called "Buddeye" created an incredible experience against the computer controlled aircraft, against which I found myself competing against various manouvres including Yo-Yo's, rolling scissors, Immleman's.and many more. It truly felt like you were up against a real player. My favourite moment was low on the deck while chasing an enemy I had damaged. The aircraft tried to pull a climb but went into a stall and hit the deck...incredible to watch when most aircraft under Ai fly 'perfect' routines.

 

Someone call "Buddeye"....give him the job now :)

[White Owl]

You might argue that the AI should also randomly make mistakes, but that's a different issue.

 

I might argue that the AI should stop flying in any controllable fashion after having the tail shot completely off.

[Weta43]

I might argue that the AI should stop flying in any controllable fashion after having the tail shot completely off.

To be fair, they should stop fighting, but not necessarily flying...

[SlipBall]

Yes, stop and limp home or try to land somewhere

[White Owl]

I didn't say "the vert stab mostly shot away." Nor did I say "the rudder and elevators severely damaged." I said "the tail shot completely off." As in, the entire empennage removed from the airplane.

 

Currently in DCS, an AI Dora suffering any of the damage described here will immediately grow a new tail and keep flying like nothing happened. Instead of limping home with any of the damage described, the AI will magically regenerate new parts and continue fighting with no noticeable loss of performance.

 

Seems to me, that's a problem that needs addressed.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I didn't say "the vert stab mostly shot away." Nor did I say "the rudder and elevators severely damaged." I said "the tail shot completely off." As in, the entire empennage removed from the airplane.

 

Currently in DCS, an AI Dora suffering any of the damage described here will immediately grow a new tail and keep flying like nothing happened. Instead of limping home with any of the damage described, the AI will magically regenerate new parts and continue fighting with no noticeable loss of performance.

 

Seems to me, that's a problem that needs addressed.

 

ive reported that problem a few days after the rise of the Dora i think....

but ive found, that this is not only a problem with the Dora, but i have seen it on the Pony as well...but im not too sure whether this problem still exists for the P51 as i havent shot down one now for quite some time.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=106075

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

To be fair, they should stop fighting, but not necessarily flying...

 

not in the Dora's case, as all the incidents ive witnessed, both elevators were gone as well(the fuselage on the tail's end will brake), but out of magic, it generates a second tail as soon as the first one flys apart.

[Merlin-27]

I agree with David on this point. The AI is just fine with the exception on the gun accuracy. Although I've been getting better at predicting and evading when they begin their rain of "guided lead" you are most definitely torn to shreds if do not see them the second they are on your tail. (or anywhere in the vicinity with the nose facing you) As far as flying characteristics, there are plenty of people flying MP that can work more "magic" than the AI.