"CP 9S80M1 Sborka" / Dog Ear Radar within DCS World

[Rongor]

Does anyone know what this thing does ingame? I don't need advice what Dog Ear is in real world. What I would like to know is, what are the abilities of this object within DCS World, when used in missions and how to implement it correctly.

The encyclopedia of the mission editor is very vague about correct use. It tells about some guidance value for AA units. But what units these are and how this guidance is applied remains unclear.

I could now start to put it in groups with some other air defense units and hope to gain some magic benefit out of it. But maybe someone of you knows proven facts.

[Silver_Dragon]

Sa-9/Sa-13/ZSU-23-4 benefice for the detection extender range of Dog Ear radar on DCS:W.

 

If you like real worlk use, check SamSimulator manual ZSU-23-4.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/2b7qtu37kz3upoy/SAMSim_docs_131010.rar

[Rongor]

There is interesting data in your linked source, so thanks for that.

But still looking for fact knowledge regarding the implementation in DCS World.

[Aginor]

IIRC Shilkas and some SAMs detect enemy aircraft some miles earlier when Dog Ear is used.

[Rongor]

Yes I already "heard" so. But we wanna know! ;)

[Eihort]

Is there -any- sort of tutorial on creating air defense groups that work together or does that capability no exist yet?

 

I know a F4-style IADS is out of the question right now, but how close can we get?

[Aginor]

Well, they work together if you put them into a group together, or what do you mean?

[Laud]

I guess he's asking for the AI air defences capability of networking together while engaging targets. Like TOR remains Radar off till launch while another radar station is providing the radar picture to the TOR (example).

[pappavis]

Enemy in DogEar detectionzone

 

I guess he's asking for the AI air defences capability of networking together while engaging targets. Like TOR remains Radar off till launch while another radar station is providing the radar picture to the TOR (example).

 

 

You should be able to achieve this using scripting in the mission editor.

 

HOWTO;

1. Place a Dog Ear radar.

2. Create a triggerzone 'Enemy in DogEar detectionzone' the circlesize centered of the dogear radar detection area.

3. Place a TOR close to the edge of the triggerzone.

4. Set the Tor's startup option to explicitly radar=off.

5. Create a reapeating/once off trigger -- .

-- When a hostile aircraft enters the detectionradar, activate the Tor' radar.

-- When no hostiles, or hostile leave the DogEar detectionzone, disable Tor´radar.

 

Notes;

* Above wasnt tested, but suppose it could work.

* I figure since about DCS 1.25 above should be possible, espcially the radar on/off is crucial to this effect.

[Rongor]

If I would have to create a trigger zone, I would assume the Dog Ear isn't supposed together with Tor in the first place, since I could do the same trick with a S-300 Search Radar or a 1L13 EWR Station to use their detectionrange as a trigger. This is not how SAM systems within DCS World are designed. Units work together or they don't. I am not looking for workaround triggers for the "dont's", I want to know what air defense systems within DCS World are designed to work together with the Dog Ear.

[pappavis]

I want to know what air defense systems within DCS World are designed to work together with the Dog Ear.

 

Answer: ZSU-23-4, Sa-9 and SA-13.

 

Since early LOFC-days it was said that placing a Dog Ear in a group with ZSU-23-4 , SA-9, SA-13 would extend the effectviness of those systems.

I never tested it.

[104th_Maverick]

It is designed to work with the Strela SA-13 "Gopher".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K35_Strela-10

[Rongor]

Yes, I know the wikipedia statement. I just hoped somebody would know how it works within DSC World.

So I will have to try with mentioned systems.

[NoCarrier]

Yes, I know the wikipedia statement. I just hoped somebody would know how it works within DSC World.

So I will have to try with mentioned systems.

Put down a battery of, say, four SA-13s, make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and voila, the SA-13s will be alerted the moment a target enters the radar range of the Dog Ear (instead of having to acquire and track a target visually).

 

Try it yourself. Put down a SA-13 battery and overfly it at night at, say, 10k feet. Don't forget to turn your nav lights off! You'll notice the SA-13s won't see you, and won't engage. Then make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and watch what happens when you try to overfly the battery again...

[Rongor]

Finally something to work with, thanks a lot, also you other ones!

[taps]

Put down a battery of, say, four SA-13s, make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and voila, the SA-13s will be alerted the moment a target enters the radar range of the Dog Ear (instead of having to acquire and track a target visually).

 

Try it yourself. Put down a SA-13 battery and overfly it at night at, say, 10k feet. Don't forget to turn your nav lights off! You'll notice the SA-13s won't see you, and won't engage. Then make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and watch what happens when you try to overfly the battery again...

 

Well, nothing happened, see track...

dog ear test.trk

[ENO]

Put down a battery of, say, four SA-13s, make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and voila, the SA-13s will be alerted the moment a target enters the radar range of the Dog Ear (instead of having to acquire and track a target visually).

 

Try it yourself. Put down a SA-13 battery and overfly it at night at, say, 10k feet. Don't forget to turn your nav lights off! You'll notice the SA-13s won't see you, and won't engage. Then make the first vehicle in that group a Dog Ear radar, and watch what happens when you try to overfly the battery again...

 

Should one of these vehicles also be a command post?

[Rongor]

There is no command post for the SA-13.

Maybe 10000 ft is to close to maximum effective altitude of 3500 m (~11500 ft).

[Rongor]

Well, nothing happened, see track...

Danke für die Mitarbeit!

 

I can confirm this, tested myself.

My A-10C flew in 4000 ft on a path directly inbound to the SA-13 battery.

 

Night scenario: SA-13 remained in deep sleep. I had to cross them overhead in about 500 ft height to wake them up, but still no launch occured. This behavior didn't change when putting a Dog Ear into the group.

 

By day the SA-13 takes first notice of you at 5 NM. This wakes the crew and launcher gets erected. At 4 NM the launcher turns towards you and starts to track. Launch occures between 2.5 and 1.5 NM distance.

Putting a Dog Ear into the group lead to the exact same results.

 

So the Dog Ear adds nothing to SA-13.

[ENO]

It (cp9s80m1) was mentioned in the initial post and I haven't seen it mentioned since. Thought it was needed in order to tie the two platforms together. Anyway- it'd be nice to see an official statement on whether what you're trying is in fact supposed to work.

[Rongor]

Official statement would indeed be nice as I only try this because it seems not anybody around here knows how it is supposed to work.

 

Meanwhile I did the same testing with Tor, SA-15 Gauntlet, no joy.

[ENO]

And by official I don't mean wags or something- I just mean someone who knows- probably a tester in the loop. I mean- we can test all day long, but if its broken or we are missing a step then we won't ever know.

[L0op8ack]

Test setting:

SA-13 skill level excellent, heading 00，state RED, target coming from 6 o'clock

Target altitude 2000m

 

Result:

without DogEar : SA-13 launcher turn(heading 180) and shoot @ slant ~2.8km

 

with DogEar : SA-13 launcher turn(heading 180) and shoot @ slant ~3.2km

Edited November 19, 2013 by L0op8ack

[SFAL]

If I remember corectly the Sborka is the EWR for the Sa19 and Sa15s

 

In a group the launchers will start track sooner if they are on Red Alert. This is true for emplacents as well.

 

Its not magical. In DCS sam abushes are hard to simulate. They cant just go RED randomly and change position

Yet....

 

Its like the EWR for the Roland...

[ENO]

They are a bit- but with user flags I think you can do it... just hard to be limited to 1-100...

 

I'm working on them in simplified form now- randomizing their activity a bit with the user flags and "conditions." Throughout the mission you can set flag random value with a variety of conditions so you can turn on AI at different times- or set different states. Whether it works or not each time... well- we'll see I guess.

 

Though you got me thinking a bit about how to work the red / green state with movement... because you can associate those user flags with hold conditions as well. When user flag 10 is true the radar shuts down and the hold is taken off... and the vehicle moves to its next waypoint. You could actually time the green condition for the amount of time it takes the vehicle to travel to the next waypoint... then turn it goes red / ai on again. Hmmmmmmmm.