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DCS: P-47D-30 Discussion


Barrett_g

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Awesome video on the myth that P-51’s were the only USAAF fighter that could escort bombers all the way to Berlin.

 

Very interesting hearing about the “Bomber Mafia” and how they manipulated info to cover their asses.

 

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Awesome video on the myth that P-51’s were the only USAAF fighter that could escort bombers all the way to Berlin.

 

Very interesting hearing about the “Bomber Mafia” and how they manipulated info to cover their asses.

 

 

Amen!

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Amen!

 

It was a matter of timing and logistics; Mustangs and Lightnings had the range to reach Berlin by December of 1943, and the decision to do so was limited by available numbers, so rather than risk a massacre if they sent them in penny packets, they waited until March when they had the numbers to make a difference.

 

P-47Ds with centerline tanks couldn't reach Berlin until the wing pylon kits trickled into Britain in spring '44 (late March-early April) and were promptly hogged by the 56th FG (who also got all the first paddle blade prop kits back in January). These first few Jugs could reach Berlin if they carried the new bigger paper tanks, but the numbers of those were limited at first, and the Mustang groups got first dibs because they were already doing it.

 

All of the new airplanes and new modification kits made in America had to be transported across the Atlantic, usually by ship (and having made the trip that way, I can tell you it isn't an overnight delivery situation, even today), and once in Liverpool, had to be unpacked and assembled, tested and only then did the bean counters (grudgingly) allow them to be delivered to the combat groups.

 

I don't want to denigrate the Jug at all here, but there's a saying that the pioneers get the arrows long before they get the credit for doing it before anyone else. The Mustang and Lightning did it when it was the most difficult, and that's why they get the most credit.

 

Of course, I am eagerly looking forward to getting the P-47 I was promised when I chipped in $50.00 back in the very beginning of this project over six years ago.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]"Here's your new Mustangs boys--you can learn to fly 'em on the way to the target!" LTCOL Don Blakeslee, late February 1944

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It was a matter of timing and logistics; Mustangs and Lightnings had the range to reach Berlin by December of 1943, and the decision to do so was limited by available numbers, so rather than risk a massacre if they sent them in penny packets, they waited until March when they had the numbers to make a difference.

 

P-47Ds with centerline tanks couldn't reach Berlin until the wing pylon kits trickled into Britain in spring '44 (late March-early April) and were promptly hogged by the 56th FG (who also got all the first paddle blade prop kits back in January). These first few Jugs could reach Berlin if they carried the new bigger paper tanks, but the numbers of those were limited at first, and the Mustang groups got first dibs because they were already doing it.

 

All of the new airplanes and new modification kits made in America had to be transported across the Atlantic, usually by ship (and having made the trip that way, I can tell you it isn't an overnight delivery situation, even today), and once in Liverpool, had to be unpacked and assembled, tested and only then did the bean counters (grudgingly) allow them to be delivered to the combat groups.

 

I don't want to denigrate the Jug at all here, but there's a saying that the pioneers get the arrows long before they get the credit for doing it before anyone else. The Mustang and Lightning did it when it was the most difficult, and that's why they get the most credit.

 

Of course, I am eagerly looking forward to getting the P-47 I was promised when I chipped in $50.00 back in the very beginning of this project over six years ago.

 

cheers

 

horseback

 

 

Did you watch the aforementioned video?

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another good set of videos

 

:thumbup:

 

Hype Train Engage!!

 

I have followed Greg`s excellent youtube channel for a good while. Great source of technical knowledge. Part 6 details the P-47`s ability to carry drop tanks from 1943 which gave it the ability as a bomber escort to range well into Germany and back, well before the P-51 arrived.

The "bomber mafia" caused a lot of needless deaths due to their failed ideology and covered it up by rewriting history. Shocking stuff if his description is in anyway accurate, the top brass responsible should have been shot for stupidity and dereliction of duty. or at the very least jailed.

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I have followed Greg`s excellent youtube channel for a good while. Great source of technical knowledge. Part 6 details the P-47`s ability to carry drop tanks from 1943 which gave it the ability as a bomber escort to range well into Germany and back, well before the P-51 arrived.

The "bomber mafia" caused a lot of needless deaths due to their failed ideology and covered it up by rewriting history. Shocking stuff if his description is in anyway accurate, the top brass responsible should have been shot for stupidity and dereliction of duty. or at the very least jailed.

 

I agree. A lot of needless death because a group of people thought the bombers were untouchable.

 

I wonder how many of the members of the “Bomber Mafia” got kick backs or incentives from Boeing? “Don’t spend money on drop tanks, instead buy X more bombers!”

 

It would be interesting if there were some way to prove it... but I’m sure there were no paper trails.

 

Maybe look up each individual member and see if any of them had jobs at Boeing after the war!

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The evidence as a whole points to Horseback being correct. The logistics and operational technicalities made it far more complex than Greg - alibeit interesting - take on the information allows.

 

Tip: Barret, don't use a single source whose conclusion is based on a great deal of subjective interpretation as a be all and end all for your opinions.

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The evidence as a whole points to Horseback being correct. The logistics and operational technicalities made it far more complex than Greg - alibeit interesting - take on the information allows.

 

Tip: Barret, don't use a single source whose conclusion is based on a great deal of subjective interpretation as a be all and end all for your opinions.

 

So you’re saying the U.S. had the logistical and operational ability to put P-47’s in crates and ship them to the front as needed.... but lacked the ability to do the same with drop tanks? It was not a logistics problem, nor a operational technicality problem. It was the top brass’ policies that created the problem.

 

In the video Greg shows that the P-47 (mathematically) could have escorted the B-17’s on their bombing raids in 1943, before the P-51’s arrived in theater. Math is not subjective.

 

The reason the P-47’s did not escort the bombers early on was not due to logistics or operational technicalities. It was due to the short sightedness of the top brass and their “bomber centric” notions.

 

The “bomber mafia’s” beliefs caused a lot of unnecessary deaths. They covered their asses by comparing a late model P-51 to an early model P-47 to create a false narrative that they did not have escort aircraft capable of making it to Berlin until the P-51 arrived.

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Illogical. Why then bother to provide any escort to the range limits then?

 

Does the name Cass Hough mean anything to you? If it doesn't then this where this conversation ends cos you haven't done your homework and I don't have either the time or the inclination to educate you.

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You mean Col. Cass Hough? The guy that had to develop the 110 gallon paper tank in-theater because the Bomber Mafia prohibited drop tank development on pursuit aircraft stateside?

 

Look... All I’m saying is that mistakes were made, the powers-that-be covered their asses with biased documents, and those documents have been used as the gospel on why the P-47 was inferior to the P-51.

 

In reality, with the use of drop tanks, the P-47 could escort the B-17 as far as the B-17 could go.

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Barret, your statement is flawed and confused. You include correct and incorrect infomation.

Let's look at this logically.

There was obviously a need for escort fighters and it was realized by the USAAF high commad. If they hadn't believed that, the 8TH Air Force would have been an all bomber air force. It would not have had any fighters attached to it.

The P-47 carried a rediculously small amount of fuel. It did not have wet wings, as you know. That didn't happen until the N. A 2600 horse Pratt and Whitney used up fuel at almost 100 gallons per hour! So take off an entire group of Thunderbolts, 60 planes. form up over the field as a unit, then finally set out on your escort mission. You've just used about 40 minutes of flying time. 20 miles across the Channel, and not in straight line. You have to weave to stay with the bombers because they're doing only 150 miles an hour. You finally go feet dry and you've got enough fuel left to fight for about 15 minutes and then you'd better head home or you're gonna wind up in the ice cold waters of the English Channel or the North Sea.

The first drop tanks, the tear shaped units, only carried 75 gallons. Not even an hours worth.

The Mustang was ordered into production by Hap Arnold as soon as he saw one demonstrated. It was the escort fighter he needed. And this was early in 1943, so the need for escorts was known.

Eventually, the P-47 was reaching Germany. But it was the new 108 gallon paper tanks that got them there. And Cass Hough was a major force in getting those to the 8TH Air Force.They often carried three of them. Over three hours more fuel. Now we were talking range! And added to that was the fact that American fighters could keep the tanks on longer, now, because the Luftwaffe had moved most of it's West based fighter units back to Germany. German fighter were no longer forcing U.S. fighters to drop their tanks as soon as they crosed the coast.

The Bomber Barons were responsible for the U.S. not having enough good fighters when the war began. They made sure that most of the Air Corps money went to bomber developemet. So the country started the war with some of the finest bombers ever built. But the best fighter the U.S. could field in 1941, was the P-40.

But the need was realized. Too slowly, for some, but it ws realized and fixed.

But there is no way that anyone, during the terrible days of late summer and Autumn of 1943, that anyone thought that long range escort fighters were not needed.

Sorry to have gone on so long.


Edited by Ercoupe
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Of course, I am eagerly looking forward to getting the P-47 I was promised when I chipped in $50.00 back in the very beginning of this project over six years ago.

 

cheers

 

horseback

 

Just chiming in, same boat, original kickstarter here. Very grateful that ED picked this up and saved it for us. Those six years have gone quick, and we are so near! Already working out mapping my A-10 HOTAS to work as a throttle quadrant!

 

Will be fun to finally flip the switches, tweak some levers, and hear her fire up!:thumbup:

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I like his videos, but sometimes it is not bad idea to check another sources.

 

i.e.

He touches briefly 200 gallons external fuel tanks, but without anything behind them.

 

These tanks, "bath-tub", were intended for ferry purpouse and were unpressurized!

So, they were usless above 20000ft. Only half of content was usable during standard escort flight and they added around 75 miles of range.

P-47 groups began to use them in late July 1943.

 

So in this case, his theory about escort bombers all the way and back to Schweinfurt with them is incorrect.

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I like his videos, but sometimes it is not bad idea to check another sources.

So in this case, his theory about escort bombers all the way and back to Schweinfurt with them is incorrect.

 

 

There are a number of other problems with the video, not least of which is his insistence that others provide original source work, whilst he seems to give himself a pass at times (he does do some interrogation of original docs, but still makes a number of un-referenced historical claims).

 

I plan do write a full-ish response to that video but it requires some time...


Edited by philstyle

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Barret, your statement is flawed and confused. You include correct and incorrect infomation.

Let's look at this logically.

There was obviously a need for escort fighters and it was realized by the USAAF high commad. If they hadn't believed that, the 8TH Air Force would have been an all bomber air force. It would not have had any fighters attached to it.

 

If long range escort fighters were so obviously needed from the onset of war why did Hap Arnold “direct that no tactical airplane will be equipped with droppable auxiliary fuel tanks” on April 29, 1939? This is the mindset of the top USAAF officials I was talking about. The technology was there... but they refused to spend any money on it. If they had, the P-47 could have reached mid Germany from the start, and the two disastrous raids on Schweinfurt might have had different outcomes!

 

 

The P-47 carried a rediculously small amount of fuel. It did not have wet wings, as you know. That didn't happen until the N. A 2600 horse Pratt and Whitney used up fuel at almost 100 gallons per hour! So take off an entire group of Thunderbolts, 60 planes. form up over the field as a unit, then finally set out on your escort mission. You've just used about 40 minutes of flying time. 20 miles across the Channel, and not in straight line. You have to weave to stay with the bombers because they're doing only 150 miles an hour. You finally go feet dry and you've got enough fuel left to fight for about 15 minutes and then you'd better head home or you're gonna wind up in the ice cold waters of the English Channel or the North Sea.

The first drop tanks, the tear shaped units, only carried 75 gallons. Not even an hours worth.

 

Most Razorbacks carried 305 gallons of internal fuel, while the Bubbletops carried 370 gallons of internal fuel. Not really a “ridiculously small amount.” The Razorbacks could make it to the German border with no drop tanks, and all the way to Frankfurt, Kassel, or possibly even Hanover with the 75 gallon drop tank.

 

Remember that the P-51 only had 180 gallons of internal fuel without the extra internal tank kit and 269 gallons if retrofitted with the kit. Also! Remember that the rear internal tank had to be burned dry before combat because of balance issues!

 

I know the P-51 was more aerodynamic and still got better range, but you believing the P-47 had a “ridiculously small amount of fuel” just goes to show how disparaged the P-47 has been throughout the years!

 

The Mustang was ordered into production by Hap Arnold as soon as he saw one demonstrated. It was the escort fighter he needed. And this was early in 1943, so the need for escorts was known.

Eventually, the P-47 was reaching Germany. But it was the new 108 gallon paper tanks that got them there. And Cass Hough was a major force in getting those to the 8TH Air Force.They often carried three of them. Over three hours more fuel. Now we were talking range! And added to that was the fact that American fighters could keep the tanks on longer, now, because the Luftwaffe had moved most of it's West based fighter units back to Germany. German fighter were no longer forcing U.S. fighters to drop their tanks as soon as they crosed the coast.

The Bomber Barons were responsible for the U.S. not having enough good fighters when the war began. They made sure that most of the Air Corps money went to bomber developemet. So the country started the war with some of the finest bombers ever built. But the best fighter the U.S. could field in 1941, was the P-40.

But the need was realized. Too slowly, for some, but it ws realized and fixed.

But there is no way that anyone, during the terrible days of late summer and Autumn of 1943, that anyone thought that long range escort fighters were not needed.

Sorry to have gone on so long.

 

I think we’re in agreement here. The bomber barons had the U.S. set up with great bombers... but also outdated and I’ll-equipped fighters. Had they funded drop tanks from the beginning, the P-47 could have made it to Berlin and back from the onset of the war.

 

Because they didn’t, everyone believes the P-47 was trash and the P-51 was the best.


Edited by Barrett_g
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I say just give us a Italy map to play with the Jug.... after a career in the military it’s just unfortunate fact that some things don’t change until somebody dies. Every conflict has lessons learned, and I don’t see why ww2 history has to become a competition and a no I’m right you are wrong. None of us served in WW2 and most warfighters have made final journey in life.

Anyways I hope the Jug comes out soon and hope we can focus on the bird, not the failed leadership choices in ww2. Had enough of that in the last 21 years...

 

 

Jugs!:thumbup:

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Did you watch the aforementioned video?

Oh yes; the author ignores a few basics, not least of which is that 'available in early 1943' isn't exactly the same as 'available in useful numbers in England'. You may have a design and a few examples in the States, but the cost of materials and manufacture might conflict with production of other war materials that have a higher priority, either for the materials and manpower, or for the shipping space needed to get it to England.

 

He apparently seems ignorant of the fact that the '200 gallon' drop tank he mentions constantly was not pressurized; this might be due to the fact that Republic omitted that info when they put it into the manuals, or that what they thought would work turned out to be impractical in the field. This according to Escort To Berlin, by Fry & Ethell, adapted almost directly from the 4th Fighter Group's official war diary. I don't know if it's still in print; my copy dates from 1980, and I got it from the San Diego Air Museum's library overstock sale sometime after that (when my former wife wasn't looking).

 

In any case, the first use of the tank was in late July of 1943, by the 4th FG, which obtained their first examples on the 17th. The first set of tanks were used to instruct ground crew in their care and installation over the first few days, then expended as the pilots of the group practiced flying with them and then in dropping them (you do not want to drop a new type tank for the first time in combat--I don't care how many times the company test pilots did it over Long Island). Photos show a bulbous conformal type of tank, apparently metal.

 

Being unpressurized, these tanks could not be used at higher altitude, could not be fully filled and generated significant drag. Just looking at it, I would expect that they were expensive and hard to make too, due to the complicated shape. Escort to Berlin describes them as unreliable; the tanks could fall off or the fuel lines could disconnect during takeoff.

 

In any case, they were soon replaced by the pressurized paper 108 gallon and 75 gallon teardrop tanks, in September and late August of that year. I cannot comment on availability at that point, but the 75 gallon examples look pretty similar to the belly tanks you see mounted on P-40s of that same time period (but preparations for TORCH were underway, and they may have been diverted--I see photos of paper tanks almost exclusively after September, and the P-40 is never seen with paper tanks).

 

Bear in mind that at this point, Merlin Mustangs are beginning to arrive in England; the first production models came out in late May --early June in Los Angeles, and had to be transported the 2500 miles across the US to be carried via ship to British ports (most often, Liverpool). Mustangs are cheaper by a wide margin, they did not use the expensive turbosuperchargers that were also needed for the heavy bombers (think priorities and politics), and they had an impressive range and speed at all altitudes, plus a better climb and acceleration than the concurrent model of the P-47D (without the vaunted paddleblade props). Possibly more important, by all accounts, the MUstang was easier to fly and master than the P-47.

 

While the Mustangs are re-assembled and tested in Britain (again, you cannot take the company test pilot's word for anything you have to use in combat), Europe was experiencing some pretty bad weather, limiting flying time and missions over France and western Germany. A new group arrives and is assigned to learn to fly the Mustangs, and the new fuselage tank kits arrive and are installed by late December.

 

During this time, I find no reliably dated photos of 8th Air Force combat P-47s with anything more than the centerline mounted tanks; there are some examples of the flat-pack 150 gallon tanks with the 56th FG, but no wing pylons for additional tanks. The 4th FG flew P-47s through Big Week in late February '44, and the diary makes no mention of anything but belly tanks.

 

Apparently, the 56th FG got the lion's share of both the new paddleblade prop kits around December to February of '44, but the other P-47 groups had to wait for more kits or the later production models to become available, around late March or April, by which time the 4th had converted to Mustangs, becoming the third P-51 group in the ETO, all of which had converted or retrofitted to the 85 gallon fuselage tank. These can be identified by the white cross above the data plate stencil blow and behind the exhaust stacks on the port (left) side of the fuselage.

 

Photos of razorback Jugs with wing pylons that I can reliably date to pre-D-Day are few; all of them have the colored noses assigned by the 8th AF Fighter Command in March '44. I found no 8th AF P-47s with white noses and wing pylons, even with the blatantly favored 56th FG. That group apparently received retrofit kits for the pylons, because I see many Olive Drab razorbacks with pylons, and the first production models with pylons were delivered unpainted, the first example reaching the 56th in March of '44.

 

From all this I had to conclude that "someone" decided that the finite supply of high octane aviation fuel refined in the US and shipped at no small expense in lives and ships to Britain, the Med, and Russia was best used for escort from England by Mustangs.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]"Here's your new Mustangs boys--you can learn to fly 'em on the way to the target!" LTCOL Don Blakeslee, late February 1944

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If long range escort fighters were so obviously needed from the onset of war why did Hap Arnold “direct that no tactical airplane will be equipped with droppable auxiliary fuel tanks” on April 29, 1939? This is the mindset of the top USAAF officials I was talking about. The technology was there... but they refused to spend any money on it. If they had, the P-47 could have reached mid Germany from the start, and the two disastrous raids on Schweinfurt might have had different outcomes!
Arnold issued that order in response to the requirements of Congress, which feared that drop tanks would be 'provocative' to the Axis Powers, or worse, give Roosevelt the idea that he should intervene in Europe. One of the reasons that the P-38 had such a large internal fuel supply was to get around this law.

 

 

 

 

Most Razorbacks carried 305 gallons of internal fuel, while the Bubbletops carried 370 gallons of internal fuel. Not really a “ridiculously small amount.” The Razorbacks could make it to the German border with no drop tanks, and all the way to Frankfurt, Kassel, or possibly even Hanover with the 75 gallon drop tank.

 

Remember that the P-51 only had 180 gallons of internal fuel without the extra internal tank kit and 269 gallons if retrofitted with the kit. Also! Remember that the rear internal tank had to be burned dry before combat because of balance issues!

 

I know the P-51 was more aerodynamic and still got better range, but you believing the P-47 had a “ridiculously small amount of fuel” just goes to show how disparaged the P-47 has been throughout the years!

 

Your estimates only work if the P-47s are flown in a direct line, independently climbing at a very gradual rate. You couldn't do that in the spring and early summer of 1943; any flight in southeastern England was credited as combat hours at that time because the Luftwaffe was known to still occasionally drop by for a visit.

 

There is no allowance for climbing through the near omnipresent overcast (I know this is true, because I lived in East Anglia for four years) in formation, where three of the four aircraft are often adjusting their throttles to conform to their leader while keeping each other in sight, the extra fuel burned just climbing to an altitude where you are competitive with the FWs and Mes, and then orbiting in the position where the bombers you are escorting are supposed to be--and for a long while in '42-'43, the bomber groups were very sloppy (or, if you prefer, criminally negligent) about getting where they were supposed to be on time while their escorts were burning precious fuel.

 

A lot of young men died or were captured because the bomber leaders routinely gave no thought to the requirements of the fighters who would be protecting them; this ended by the winter of 1943/44, not least because a few high ranking bomber group officers literally got punched out in London by fighter pilots there on weekend passes.

 

Mustangs used significantly less fuel doing these things, and it was considered more competitive with the enemy fighters at all altitudes.

 

I think we’re in agreement here. The bomber barons had the U.S. set up with great bombers... but also outdated and I’ll-equipped fighters. Had they funded drop tanks from the beginning, the P-47 could have made it to Berlin and back from the onset of the war.

 

Because they didn’t, everyone believes the P-47 was trash and the P-51 was the best.

Here I agree, but a large part of the prejudice against the P-47 is due to the simplified history so many are taught--and in some cases, the only information you get is from the mini-history included with the assembly directions of the model airplanes a lot of us built as kids.

 

Turns out that reality is much more complex.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]"Here's your new Mustangs boys--you can learn to fly 'em on the way to the target!" LTCOL Don Blakeslee, late February 1944

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This one:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/58103-p47-throttle-quadrant-project/

 

This dude is cnc’ing his own throttle! Wish he could make more of them, or we could get a company to make them!

 

Yeah, that would be nice but I had something more available in mind.

 

I wonder what that dude on the classified forum who makes all those throttles could come up with? The stick is easy. It's the throttle that's a problem.

Buzz

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I'm sticking with my trusty Warthog; the throttle & prop pitch will be on the large axes, as with the P-51D, and the turbosupercharger/boost will be the grey slider below; the mixture will be assigned to a thumb switch on the side.

 

I expect the trim assignments to be more critical; America's Hundred Thousand describes the Jug as needing a fair amount of trim adjustment, although the trims are not as 'sensitive' as on the P-51.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]"Here's your new Mustangs boys--you can learn to fly 'em on the way to the target!" LTCOL Don Blakeslee, late February 1944

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