Neon67 Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 HI all sorry if i m not in the right thread I am trying to survive any engagement with the su27 against f16 f18 f15 in BVR combat I try to keep my target locked when using r27 et/er , but i have really a hard time evading aim 120 It seems my missile often miss while the americans counter part hit me without problem :cry:. So can someone explain me some basic tactic to improve my poor skills as a fighter to win air supremacy ? Thanks :joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRooDJeRo Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Use mountains, pop in and out, sneak in from behind, force re-navigation, create chaos, mess up situational awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted November 11, 2013 ED Team Share Posted November 11, 2013 Have a look at this thread some good tips http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100117 With a combination of knowing when to use your radar and notching you can get inside the BVR and engage :) Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkwolf Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 I usually use R27ER to have the first shot, at limit range. the shot will not hit but will force the target to go defensive. I keep looking the target aspect. As soon as he tries to turn back on me, i shot again. I keep firing until he dies, or until i'm out of missile, or until i'm engaged by something else. If that happen, i just fire a few R27IR in the direction and flee. If the target is firing at me, i turn to the limit of my radar, to keep the lock on him - and opposite to his own turn - keeping firing. If he is far, i climb so his missile will run out of energy. If he is close, i dive to use ground clutter with flare/chaff. If he is dead close - i make a prayer. It is maybe not the best tactics - i don't consider myself as a good fighter pilot. I know everything about the su27 but i sucks at shooting stuff. :) Yet this technics allows me to have some success against IA and virtual pilots - but is not a 100% guarantee. Works only 60-70% of the time, and chance of survival drop down dramatically with the amount of opponents. Some people here may share better tactics, i will keep an eye on that topic :) If you are in a complex environment with GCI/Awacs - your best bet is to keep you radar OFF, work with EOS and try to flank the planes. This require a lot of room, but if you can sneak between radar detection - you can have a fairly easy kill. You just need to make sure you have an awacs and the US awacs is already burning in flames. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] PC simulator news site. Also....Join the largest DCS community on Facebook :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinox Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 I'd say it makes a big difference if you are figting AI, or human player. AI "cheats", but on the other side is incredibly stupid. Training with AI is imho not worth the time spent. It does not prepare you for MP... Next, DCS changes from patch to patch. Missile effectiveness is adjusted again and again, and I'm not sure always in the right direction. Right now, ET is again "revenge weapon" with detection range close to its maximum flight range (and that in head-on engagement!). Over-effective in mp. AIM120 has been "downgraded" to the point it is like bamboo-stick you carry under your arm. But this might change in the next patch, and (nearly) all the tactics you learn now will be pointless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karambiatos Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 I'd say it makes a big difference if you are figting AI, or human player. AI "cheats", but on the other side is incredibly stupid. Training with AI is imho not worth the time spent. It does not prepare you for MP... Next, DCS changes from patch to patch. Missile effectiveness is adjusted again and again, and I'm not sure always in the right direction. Right now, ET is again "revenge weapon" with detection range close to its maximum flight range (and that in head-on engagement!). Over-effective in mp. AIM120 has been "downgraded" to the point it is like bamboo-stick you carry under your arm. But this might change in the next patch, and (nearly) all the tactics you learn now will be pointless... it can train you pretty well if you set it up properly for example you take 2 F-15s put them on excellent, give them an intercept mission on your plane, and tell them to attack as a group, then give them aim-120s only, youll have a hell of a time winning that. A 1000 flights, a 1000 crashes, perfect record. =&arrFilter_pf[gameversion]=&arrFilter_pf[filelang]=&arrFilter_pf[aircraft]=&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC"] Check out my random mods and things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinox Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 it can train you pretty well if you set it up properly for example you take 2 F-15s put them on excellent, give them an intercept mission on your plane, and tell them to attack as a group, then give them aim-120s only, youll have a hell of a time winning that. No, it can not train me a sh*t. First and foremost, such a situation (2xF15 against single Su-27) has nothing to do with reality. Moreover, after you find how AI "thinks" you can defeat them easily. Even 3xF15. You know why? Because there is very little (read: none) "randomness" in their behaviour. You can quickly learn AI's attacking pattern. And they do not deviate a lot from it. In MP, when two F15 (I mean human players, of course) are attacking me, the best I can do is run. If they are as good (or bad) as me, I'd have no chance to put them down both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinox Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 OMG, what next? Su-27 against SR-71? Or BMG-109 Tomahawk? Think AT LEAST a little realistically. AIM-54 was developed for protecting carrier-groups against Tu-22s with anti-ship missiles and afaik was never "fired in anger". Why should Su-27 engage F-14? That's about as real as F15 fighting MiG-25/31 with R33/R37... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchesterdelta1 Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) Didn't the F-15 fight the Mig-25 or 31 in the 1st Gulf War? And wasn't the F-15 designed to intercept those planes effectivly? And the F-14 did fire the AIM-54 Phoenix in Anger if i recall. Libia and Iran right? Or am i totally wrong. I don't think it's very unrealistic for a Su-27 to fight a F-14. If there ever would be a full scale war i think those planes would actually meet eachother in Combat. SU-27's escorting other planes on strike mission/ Anti ship or something. It's weird that alot of hypothetical situations that did not happen in real life but could have happend is considerd as unrealistic. Those plaens exsisted in the same time frame. So it's very well possible that they would meet eachother if a actuall big war would brake out. But maybe i'm wrong and totally stupid or misunderstood your comment. So correct me if needed. Edit: hmm where you only talking about the unrealistic situation that a mig-25/31 would carry a R33/77? Edited November 11, 2013 by winchesterdelta1 Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karambiatos Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 No, it can not train me a sh*t. First and foremost, such a situation (2xF15 against single Su-27) has nothing to do with reality. Moreover, after you find how AI "thinks" you can defeat them easily. Even 3xF15. You know why? Because there is very little (read: none) "randomness" in their behaviour. You can quickly learn AI's attacking pattern. And they do not deviate a lot from it. In MP, when two F15 (I mean human players, of course) are attacking me, the best I can do is run. If they are as good (or bad) as me, I'd have no chance to put them down both... go ahead try what ive said, see how it goes. A 1000 flights, a 1000 crashes, perfect record. =&arrFilter_pf[gameversion]=&arrFilter_pf[filelang]=&arrFilter_pf[aircraft]=&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC"] Check out my random mods and things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBot Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) OMG, what next? Su-27 against SR-71? Or BMG-109 Tomahawk? Think AT LEAST a little realistically. AIM-54 was developed for protecting carrier-groups against Tu-22s with anti-ship missiles and afaik was never "fired in anger". Why should Su-27 engage F-14? That's about as real as F15 fighting MiG-25/31 with R33/R37... You might be surprised to learn that a Su-27/F-14 confrontation was just as likely as a Su-27/F-15 confrontation (or perhaps even more so). The Soviet Frontal Aviation (VVS) was equipped with MiG-29 as its main fighter. At the end of the 80s, 8 of 9 Soviet fighter regiments in the GDR were equpped with the MiG-29 (one regiment of MiG-23MLD was retained due to its superior range). The only VVS Su-27 stationed outside the Soviet Union were 2 regiments stationed in Poland (and only very late in the 80s). Contrary the majority of Su-27 went to the air-defence units of the PVO stationed within the Soviet Union. Their primary task was defending against strategic bombers. But in the peripheries (Kola peninsula, Far East) they would of course also defend against carrier air strikes and thus escorting F-14. The PVO Flankers would have had little contact with F-15 (perhaps some out of Japan or Turkey). How many Eagles the VVS Su-27 out of Poland would have seen is an interesting question. Intended as an escort force for the co-located Su-24 regiments they could have gone to Germany, where a lof of USAF F-15 were present. On the other hand, Germany was already filled with MiG-29, so why send more? It is also possible that the Su-24/Su-27 packages from Poland would have concentrated on the British Island (to counter the F-111 there). So there the primary confrontation would have been with RAF fighters. Edited November 11, 2013 by MBot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon67 Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 From what i read in bvr fight, after firing go brake left right , and keep the lock at your radars cone limit til missile reaches it's target,try to be a little downer as your opponant so you can beam it. However it never really worked as my first missile never hit the plane, i don't fire it at max distance, rather 3/4. But still get easily confused and i get knocked out by aim120 in the mean time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 AIM-54 was developed for protecting carrier-groups against Tu-22s with anti-ship missiles and afaik was never "fired in anger". Yes it has, and missed/malfunctioned. Why should Su-27 engage F-14? That's about as real as F15 fighting MiG-25/31 with R33/R37...Because maybe it would have to. Su-27's have intercepted NATO ASuW aircraft before, F-14's could be used to cover those. On the other hand, it would be less likely for those F-14's to be hauling AIM-54's. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooom Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 id say a big key is not to engage alone. you can only notch so much if the bandit is focused solely upon you - if he is also having to content with you wingmen, things get a bit easier.... note i said a "bit".... See the video in my sig as an example from teh perspective of a sukhoi and an F15 on the notch. ASUS Tuf Gaming Pro x570 / AMD Ryzen 7 5800X @ 3.8 / XFX Radeon 6900 XT / 64 GB DDR4 3200 "This was not in the Manual I did not read", cried the Noob" - BMBM, WWIIOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srky Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Neon, Take a look at this video, it might give you an idea of BVR dynamics between flanker and eagle (and their typical weapons). You can use it as starting point in making your own tactics. The video is from old version of Lock On but it still applies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinox Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 id say a big key is not to engage alone. you can only notch so much if the bandit is focused solely upon you - if he is also having to content with you wingmen, things get a bit easier.... Unless really forced to do it (or having some advantage), no real fighter pilot is so stupid to engage alone two (equally good) opponents. And it does not matter if it is one Su-27 against 2x F-14 (in usa retired, aim54 even longer, in iran questionable) or one F-16 against 2x MiG-29... In DCS (SP), you can try it, and even survive (once you learn pattern AI fly), but in MP your chances are very low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkspade Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 The AI's reliability on being predictable is still very useful. Not so much at learning tactics, but testing the limits of your weapons and theirs. If you have in mind a certain thing you'd like to test, the only variable is going to be how you fly, since the AI will act and react very much the same every time. They have apparently made some changes to the AI where they cheat less. For example in BVR they attempt to atleast be co-altitude pre-engagement. The previously omniscient AI would climb with you no matter what. Now however, if you climb with your ECM on and Radar off they won't realize your altitude change until burn through or you going nose hot. The AI Su-27 still seems to fire at Rmax of 31nm against my jammer, which I assume is still outside of burn through. The 2v1 scenario in an F-15C is at least survivable given how well tws and amraams function. While not absolutely likely to be the situation IRL, its still designed for the capability if the need arises. If 2 bandits present themselves in a manner that grants me a favorable advantage, then I'll certainly take them on. This especially true if there is some asset that I have opted to protect. This is obviously less likely to be successful in a Su-27. BVR against a single skilled F-15 is going to be challenging, let alone 2 that might be communicating with each other properly. 12nm is the danger zone for a human driven F-15 against Russian hardware. It still only going to be effective for the Su/MiG pilot if they get that close unseen. Once again versus 2 on comms, if you manage to get one the 2nd will likely be all over you. http://104thphoenix.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spuds Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I have the same problem, launched 5 at F15 in close range, not one hit. Went into the notch and tried to mask low level in the mountains, missle's still hunted me down and killed me even with chaff and flare and evasive manuevering. I understand I don't have great skills, but find SU27 missles ineffective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drona Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I have the same problem, launched 5 at F15 in close range, not one hit. Went into the notch and tried to mask low level in the mountains, missle's still hunted me down and killed me even with chaff and flare and evasive manuevering. I understand I don't have great skills, but find SU27 missles ineffective You need to just try harder with the Su-27's missiles but its true that some miss but not all. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper-6 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Unless really forced to do it (or having some advantage), no real fighter pilot is so stupid to engage alone two (equally good) opponents. And it does not matter if it is one Su-27 against 2x F-14 (in usa retired, aim54 even longer, in iran questionable) or one F-16 against 2x MiG-29... In DCS (SP), you can try it, and even survive (once you learn pattern AI fly), but in MP your chances are very low... :D :D :D Hair on the wall... Blood in the street... The crush of bone ' neath my feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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