Missile effectiveness

[rlogue]

Hi all, don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I have a question. I am fully aware of some of the radar / missile bugs or flukes. I was online the other night and while in the F-15 came up upon a Mig 25T. I am sure the guy saw me as he kind of leisurely notched me. I still kept the aspect well enough to keep a lock on him, flew to within about 7 nm or so, became visual, still locked up launched two slammers and two Aim 7's at him. He did not appear to do anything but notch somewhat. Every missile easily missed him with no apparant evasive manuevering, so then he pulls his nose toward me and launches a heater and kills me. Is the 25 a better air to air fighter than the F15 is ? Plus notching may work sometimes but is it automatic ? especially close in. Please explain ... and after patches, etc will the 15 be able to hold it's own against the 25 ? Also, when I asked the guy how he defeated the missiles, he said that he was using the IR Jammer ????? Should that work against radar guided missiles ?

[Force_Feedback]

Yes, one member around here is been known to be a formidable Su-25T A-A fighter. You can notch every radar guided missile, if you know where your enemy is. And yes, the su-25T is formidable, because it doesn't have anything that gives it away, hell, it doesn't even have powerful engines, it handles like a pig, but boy, it can fight well in the hands of a formidable pilot.

 

 

Me, I'm not good with the su-25T, but since I got my new rig (1 day ago), I have a playable fps on medium settings, so no more 9 fps approaches and landings for me :)

[Weta43]

If you go to the lockon.ru site there are some graphs showing the performance capabilities of an Su25 (T the same at the same mass), A-10, Mig29, Su27 & F15.

If it's not hauling a big payload & full of fuel, it's not a bad plane... (a completely different approach to delivery than the A-10)

Not exactly a fighter, but a good pilot could make it a handfull to take on.

[Prophet_169th]

Me and Fudd got 5 A-A kills together yesterday against F15C/Su27.

 

We were in in Su25T. Never even bothered to drop loadout either =) Good plane.

[rlogue]

Is it a good plane, or are you up against bad missiles ? A radar guided missile that can be evaded by an infared jammer doesn't present much challenge !

[D-Scythe]

Me and Fudd got 5 A-A kills together yesterday against F15C/Su27.

 

We were in in Su25T. Never even bothered to drop loadout either =) Good plane.

 

IMO, having a pair of Su-25Ts chalk up 5 Eagle/Flanker kills without jetting their A/G stores just means the game is unrealistic, that's all ;)

[GGTharos]

A) Vikhrs have extremely unrealistic g-loading capability. When it gets fixed, you won't be killing so many fighters with it

 

B) There exist -some- problems with radar guided missiles, yes

 

C) Chaff works.

 

D) IR jammer only works from the rear, and only on IRH missiles.

 

E) Due to all these issues, simply avoid attacking the 25T as if it was a helpless duckling. It is, but it can be tricky. Maintain high altitude and fly on top of him, then shoot straight down at him. He won't even know you fired.

[Force_Feedback]

E) Due to all these issues, simply avoid attacking the 25T as if it was a helpless duckling. It is, but it can be tricky. Maintain high altitude and fly on top of him, then shoot straight down at him. He won't even know you fired.

 

That's cold, I usually sneak up from behind and try to take out their engines, to give the pilot a chance to make it back to mother earth in a controlled manner (no, not on the K-36L), but that was in 1.1, maybe they got some kind of fix in 1.11 ;)

 

 

 

The Su-25t is a joy to fly, now I've upgraded my CPU, lol, flying with 9 fps was a pain in the a**, but I still did it, now I can enjoy the piggy at 25 fps near ground, with 2X AA and AF. So, until 1.2 comes out, I'm happy with the performance of FC.

[GGTharos]

It certainly is a challenge and a pleasure to fly ... of course, I also enjoy watching it get destroyed spectacularely ;)

[D-Scythe]

B) There exist -some- problems with radar guided missiles, yes

 

C) Chaff works.

 

That's quite an understatement no? Monopulse radar missiles don't even have monopulse currently, and chaffs are like radar missile magnets right now. With missiles like MICA, R-77 and AMRAAM flying about, first look/first shot should count in the NEZ - that is, planes should be dying - but currently people can dance around all day long in an enemy's NEZ and not get hit.

[Prophet_169th]

IMO, having a pair of Su-25Ts chalk up 5 Eagle/Flanker kills without jetting their A/G stores just means the game is unrealistic, that's all ;)

 

You dont look at all the variables.

 

1. We had AWACS

2. Most would fly straight at us, while we were in the weeds.

 

The kills were due to bad tactics, not an unrealistic game.

 

We had R-73's. Saying what you do, implys that a MiG or Su that is down to R-73's shouldnt get any kills either......

 

The stores only make you turn bad. There was only 1 engagement that became a turn fight, and I was loosing badly. Fudd had hit the guy once, and the engine was smoking, but he was still bearing down on me. Fudd managed to get on his 6 and kill him.

 

It appeared that the guy only thought there was 1 of us, and was going for a guns shot.. I saw missles on him. And he was maybe 20 feet from me.

 

Like I said, bad tactics.

[Prophet_169th]

That's quite an understatement no? Monopulse radar missiles don't even have monopulse currently, and chaffs are like radar missile magnets right now. With missiles like MICA, R-77 and AMRAAM flying about, first look/first shot should count in the NEZ - that is, planes should be dying - but currently people can dance around all day long in an enemy's NEZ and not get hit.

 

You guys should fly with me, there isnt enough chaff on the planet for me to evade a 120.

 

I got so mad yesterday, that I just quite, because I could evade the damn things. And it wasnt even in the NEZ.

[D-Scythe]

You dont look at all the variables.

 

1. We had AWACS

2. Most would fly straight at us, while we were in the weeds.

 

The kills were due to bad tactics, not an unrealistic game.

 

We had R-73's. Saying what you do, implys that a MiG or Su that is down to R-73's shouldnt get any kills either......

 

The stores only make you turn bad. There was only 1 engagement that became a turn fight, and I was loosing badly. Fudd had hit the guy once, and the engine was smoking, but he was still bearing down on me. Fudd managed to get on his 6 and kill him.

 

It appeared that the guy only thought there was 1 of us, and was going for a guns shot.. I saw missles on him. And he was maybe 20 feet from me.

 

Like I said, bad tactics.

 

So what, the Eagles and Flankers didn't take any missile shots at you two at all? Sure, you had Archers, but a Su-27 could also have Archers, and in a dogfight between two heavily loaded Su-25Ts and one Su-27 equipped to kill, I'm sorry, but most people would expect the Flanker to win, R-73s or not.

 

Unless the 15s and 27s took no AMRAAM/R-27ER/ET shots at either of you, even bad tactics wouldn't compensate for a Su-25T's weaknesses in a WVR situation with such fighters. So what if you had AWACs? A pair of Su-25Ts should RUN, not stay and fight. That would be the realistic thing to do.

[Pilotasso]

I was once killed by A su-25 with an R-60. This is recorded in my death list at 504 server...shame on me, I know! But I didnt let that happen again. SU-25 are vulnerable yes, but they will kill those who dont take minimal steps against it. I dont think its unrealistic, the tactics employed ingame can be though. ;)

[rlogue]

I'm not knocking anything anyone's doing online ... I'm just saying that an F-15 with a solid lock, inside of 10 nm ... shouldn't be a contest at all. An F15 doesn't need tactics in that situation .. the other guy does. I have no desire to see the F-15 so great that noone survives an encounter with it.. but they gotta do something. If someone strays into the weapons parameters of an F-15 and isn't running, he should be dead. I believe it's totally unrealistic to dodge 3 or 4 missiles shot at good parameters and still get a shot off yourself for the kill in any airplane. Weapons on both sides are so weak that it clearly makes a game out of this instead of a simulator. Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not trying to dog the game or the developers, I just want to strongly argue for better missiles all around. I think anyone with a quality shot coming at them should be forced to fly their best missile defense or blow up .. no more slight jinking or notching without maneuvering .. anyway .. that's my pitch.

[Pilotasso]

Weapons on both sides are so weak that it clearly makes a game out of this instead of a simulator.

 

Show us evidence of that. Give me combat records of the R-27 for example.

The widespread missiles basic version such as the AIM-9L and R-73 were excelent weapons for their time but they are now flare eaters. It just shows how easy a sofiticated wepon can be duped by a an primitive thing as a flare with just a few improvements. I have footage of missiles being incredibly duped by flares (check the archer video at patrick aviatio site).

 

I'm glad my country has aquired 120's recently, those 9L's were there just to scare. :)

[rlogue]

I don't have any evidence .. common sense though. If missiles were that easy to dodge, no country would have any losses to date or kills for that matter, it would still come down to guns.

[GGTharos]

Actually he doesn't need evidence (just his luck!) because D-Scythe and I, and many others already had this conversation many times. yes, the missiles are weak in many ways.

 

No, they're not as bad as some people tend to think. Eg in F4, IMHO, the missiles are plain overdone in terms of the guidance for some of them.

[rlogue]

That's a fair enough statement, I don't have the expertise to argue missile parameters. I just definately want to voice my opinion to the developers that I would like to see the eagle strong at BVR, which is the only reason there ever was an eagle. If a 20 nm kill was very hard to do with todays missiles, we wouldn't need an F15, we could still be flying the P51 ! lol

[GGTharos]

That's not really true ... today's BVR engagements rarely occur beyond 20nm. Missiles just don't seem to have a whole lot of legs. A P-51 would never survive an AMRAAM in any case, and it would instantly lose the energy fight against the eagle, too ;)

[Prophet_169th]

So what, the Eagles and Flankers didn't take any missile shots at you two at all? Sure, you had Archers, but a Su-27 could also have Archers, and in a dogfight between two heavily loaded Su-25Ts and one Su-27 equipped to kill, I'm sorry, but most people would expect the Flanker to win, R-73s or not.

 

Unless the 15s and 27s took no AMRAAM/R-27ER/ET shots at either of you, even bad tactics wouldn't compensate for a Su-25T's weaknesses in a WVR situation with such fighters. So what if you had AWACs? A pair of Su-25Ts should RUN, not stay and fight. That would be the realistic thing to do.

 

It doesnt matter what missle you use, if you fire it in a situation where all I have to do is dive, and make it hit a hill. You would expect the flanker to win, but you would also expect the pilot to know how to fly the thing, and when a good firing solution is available. In every engagement, after being painted both me and Fudd went very low. Guess what the opposing side did? Same thing, they went low. Is that realistic? You cant judge the game, based on the person. And AWACS makes a big difference, why? Because the AWACs told us where the opposer was. We dont have radar, so we used AWACs guidance.

 

Also, you stress about dogfight, it seems you think that every engagement ends in a turn fight where the Su25T would lose. There was only 1 dogfight, and I dont think I need to repeat the situation. And the others were head on shots, where we popped over a hill.

 

Sure running would be the realistic thing to do. But then this isnt real, its a game and I can respawn. Either I fly away and end up back at base, or I try for the target and die, and end up back at base.

 

You can argue it all day, but the fact is, most pilots online do not take advantage of the plane, nor the situation.

 

Sure ARH missles are porked, but we dont need to go over that again.

 

The Su25T is a decent aircraft, and against unskilled single (no voice comms) pilots, it is even better. Especially when you do have comms, and you do have AWACS.

[rlogue]

I will have to argue this point. The F15's main purpose in life is to shoot down aircraft from a distance that keeps it from getting shot down itself, it's a flying SAM site. It can turn and burn with the rest, but I still stand by my theory that it's meant to shoot down guys before they know what hit them, from 20 or more nm away. The only exception to this rule is when the ROE's state that they must visually identify before engaging .. and it's my understanding that this is a very last resort, positive ID is usually accomplished by the AWACS. While i'm not an expert on any of this, and these are my own opinions, I choose to believe that if a slammer is coming at you from BVR distances, you have to give it a good defense if not a great defense especially once it is active. I also believe that it is common to fire from 20 plus nm. I'm not trying to be hard headed, but if what I read on this forum by some is true, seriously .. why would the F4 or the F16 not be our air superiority fighter ? There has to be some reason why the 15 is our choice ? Surely not it's dogfighting capability. Don't take this as a challenge for an argument on the whole thing .. it's just a very interesting topic that I've followed for a long time and from everything i've learned, read, and heard, an amraam coming at you is very bad news and has to be taken seriously or it will hit you. In the game, firing an amraam doesn't even put people on the defensive, they've learned that in the game they can perform unrealistic tricks to beat the missile. One of my favorites that I see is to fly low and go very slow so the missile doesn't see you .. i'd love to here a real fighter pilot's take on this one ... I have a feeling he'd find it funny.

[GGTharos]

I don't recall hearing of any 20nm+ shots in real life so far with AMRAAMs. /All/ shots were taken at under 20nm, wether by F-15s or F-16s, and the AMRAAM isn't considered to be neither a slow nor short-legged missile.

 

The shots were not taken at VID ranges either.

 

The F4 is old, the F-16 has a weak radar, less range, less ability to fly well at high altitudes.

 

The other thing you have to realize is that in real life, the missile's capabilities and parameters are kept secret to prevent -precicely- what you see happening in-game ... ie. everyone who knows the tricks, using them.

 

And while some of these tricks are fairly unrealistic (flying very low or very slow) it's what works in the game, and you won't get people to stop using them. Solution: Develop counters and use tricks against their own missiles.

[D-Scythe]

It doesnt matter what missle you use, if you fire it in a situation where all I have to do is dive, and make it hit a hill. You would expect the flanker to win, but you would also expect the pilot to know how to fly the thing, and when a good firing solution is available. In every engagement, after being painted both me and Fudd went very low. Guess what the opposing side did? Same thing, they went low. Is that realistic? You cant judge the game, based on the person.

 

Yes, you can judge a game based on a person's actions. There are many things you can do in a game that for some reason is like a cheat, and will probably get you killed in real life. Example, pulling up just before a missile hits you would almost always gaurantee your survival, even if your sitting in the NEZ - you think this will save you in real life?

 

And AWACS makes a big difference, why? Because the AWACs told us where the opposer was. We dont have radar, so we used AWACs guidance.

 

You're just proving my point. The only difference AWACs should make to an A-10/Su-25T is provide warning that it's time to hike up your skirts and run, not take your chances against the incoming, top-of-the line fighter.

 

Also, you stress about dogfight, it seems you think that every engagement ends in a turn fight where the Su25T would lose. There was only 1 dogfight, and I dont think I need to repeat the situation. And the others were head on shots, where we popped over a hill.

 

I said WVR, which can include a turning fight or an energy fight. But do you honestly expect a Su-25T to win in an energy fight?

 

Head on Archer shots should at least have a 50-50 win/lose scenario, but I think the advantage goes to the Flanker/Eagle since they have more energy and can pull more Gs. So yes, an Archer fired at a Su-27 head on will have less of a chance of hitting then if it was fired at a Su-25T, IMO. In no way would I expect a Frogfoot survive and kill 5 to 0 against a Su-27/F-15, turning or not.

 

So bottom line, it doesn't matter how you killed 5 F-15s or Flankers, you should've died, no matter how good you and your friend are.

 

Sure running would be the realistic thing to do. But then this isnt real, its a game and I can respawn. Either I fly away and end up back at base, or I try for the target and die, and end up back at base.

 

That's not the point. The point is you stayed and killed 5 F-15s/Su-27s with a maximum of 4 R-73s between two Su-25Ts. This should never happen in a simulation.

 

You can argue it all day, but the fact is, most pilots online do not take advantage of the plane, nor the situation.

 

Sure ARH missles are porked, but we dont need to go over that again.

 

The Su25T is a decent aircraft, and against unskilled single (no voice comms) pilots, it is even better. Especially when you do have comms, and you do have AWACS.

 

Why? If the guy in a F-15 gets a tally on you, even assuming he's alone and a complete noob, he should STILL kill you. I don't see how the Su-25T being a "decent aircraft" makes it "even better" against such opponents.

 

I'd probably only buy this story if the same guy came at you 5 times, and each time he didn't fire any AMRAAMs or winders at either of your weapon-laden Frogfeet, deployed the brakes and flaps and tried a guns kill at 250 knots, and you killed him like that each of the 5 times.

[rlogue]

Cant' argue with much of that except the "solution". I think the solution is that if a person is in good weapons parameters for any given missile, and is not doing his best to leave those parameters, he stands a better than not chance of getting blown out of the sky. I agree that none of us should argue about missile ranges because youre right, we don't know the answer. But if you have me locked up within the games prime parameters for the slammer and I don't attempt to fly outside of the missiles kill zone, I should blow up. I guess in other words, I feel like they should make it a little more difficult to spoof the missile. It's just too easy in my opinion. If a slammer goes active and has a descent aspect on you , you better give it all you got, a simple notch should not work. I think the notch is just to break the lock, you still have to do something following the notch or it'll pick you back up. I could be totally wrong .. this would be a good topic for real guys from either side .. wouldn't that be a fascinating conversation... funny thing is those guys all tend to dodge these conversations ! lol .. they must be smarter than us !