Air to Air Refueling the A-10C

[Pinefang]

Well I hate to admit it but I'm sure I have over 20 hours trying to A to A refuel this thing. Not once have I been able to even connect for even an instant. As soon as I'm in position and the boom operator starts moving in my plane moves out of position. I have watched the you tube videos, trimmed trimmed trimmed, used 40% speed break, and adjusted curvature to 15. Anyone have any tips beyond what I have already done? It looks so easy for some people on you tube I should be no different. I use the CH Products Fighterstick USB and Pro throttles USB and have no frame rate problems.

[Derbysieger]

It's basically flying in close formation, nothing else. So keep practising and someday it will just click.

 

I wrote this guide a while back, maybe it helps a little: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=170423297

This is how it looks with a lot of practice:

Edited January 8, 2014 by Derbysieger

[Pinefang]

I'll try and put what you said to practice. Nice training video and training narration on steam by the way.

[Yurgon]

Not once have I been able to even connect for even an instant.

 

Possibly the single most important piece of advice here: Don't chase the boom.

 

That's what I used to do, and it got me in trouble every single time. Instead, try to stay in formation with the tanker and let the boom operator do the fine tuning, that's what he gets paid for. :thumbup:

 

Other than that, simply follow Derbysieger's guide, it's well written and there's pretty much anything in it you need to know. The rest, as has already been said, is just practice, practice and more practice. :thumbup:

 

In my experience, aerial refueling seems impossible at first, then it looks sort of doable, and then it somehow "clicks" and suddenly you wonder why you ever had any problems with it. :smilewink:

[Mule]

Great video. That has to be some of the smoothest flying i have seen in DCS. Nice one.

[Seil]

Maaaan, I'll tell you what, kind of like Yurgon said, once you finally connect for the first time, everything changes.

 

I'm not sure how sensitive 15 % curve is on that stick, but with old logitech sticks I used to fly with, 30% curve seemed more appropriate.

 

With the TM Warthog, 0 to 5% curve is fine.

 

That being said, if you're "bucking" your wings too much - then adjust curves.

 

If you're pretty much spot on with keeping your wings level to the tanker, then your curves should be fine.

 

If you're pitching too much, then you're probably looking too near-sighted. Try looking right above the HUD box on the windshield at the underside of the tanker's NOSE and keep that the same throughout the whole process.

 

 

SERIOUSLY, TO ALL AAR NEWBIES, PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:

 

Do NOT try to "move" the stick to make corrections. Instead try to merely "flex" your hand(s).

 

You shouldn't "Death Grip" the HOTAS, but you're really looking for the MOST MINUTE, TEENY TINY inputs possible.

 

 

----

Start yourself out around 150 feet back from the boom and speed match the tanker, "settle" into formation, pretend you're refueling right there, and get smooth.

 

RELAX!!!! BREATHE!!!! Calm yourself, slow your breathing and your heart rate. Just get comfortable and naturally sedate yourself a bit.

 

Next, barely flex the throttle up the smallest amount and close the gap at no more than 1 knot faster than the tanker's speed.

 

---

 

Obviously, if you're PRO at AAR, you don't have to take things so slowly on pre-connect, but for those that are newer / struggling with it, it's EXCELLENT practice and should significantly help you develop the skills you need to do it on command.

 

----

 

If you have a split-throttle HOTAS, one of the best ways to control speed is to "walk" the throttles up and down to match speed. Remember these adjustments are still barely noticeable.

 

-----

 

 

Lastly, I cannot recall who said it, but I think it was best said that (para-phrasing): "You are never 'in' formation, but instead always trying to 'get in' formation" as concerning formation flying.

 

Just remember that you're always dealing with a changing environment and you're always making corrections to keep yourself at the perfect speed and position.

 

AND SERIOUSLY, Remember to BREATHE and calm yourself. The better you can do this; relaxing yourself, the easier it becomes to get it right ;)

 

Good Luck!

[Pinefang]

Thanks again to everyone that has responded I finally got a connect then fueling complete and disconnect it only lasted for less than a second but it was fulfilling. It wasn't much but it was an improvement. I will keep practicing.

[Xavven]

This is very good advice, Seil. I would also add that it's important to trim as best you can right before you connect, and then pay attention to what happens to your TVV when you move the throttle. Increase throttle and you'll also see your TVV go above 0 degrees, and you will gain altitude. The opposite is true when you decrease throttle. This is the single most important thing to keep in mind IMHO.

 

I find it's best to move the throttle up and down a bit before you go that last 20 feet to connect to get a feel for how you're handling. Hunt for the throttle level that roughly matches speed with the tanker, and memorize that position. I'm no real life pilot, so this could be completely the wrong technique for real life, but I swear this works for me -- if you start falling behind the tanker, increase throttle for a short burst and then return it to the original position you memorized. If you did it right, about a second later (the engines lag a bit compared to your inputs) you'll move forward with respect to the tanker and then roughly match its speed again. If you start getting too far ahead, then do the opposite: lower the throttle for a short burst and then return it to the original position. In this way, using short bursts, it's like taking a step forward or a step back to make minor adjustments to your relative position, as opposed to constantly trying to find the EXACT speed the tanker is going and match it perfectly and continuously (which personally I can't do.)

 

Also remember that every time you move the throttle up for a short burst, you should give your flight stick a very slight nudge nose-down for about a quarter of a second and return it to center, in order to counter the aircraft's tendency to climb. Conversely, every time you move the throttle down for a short burst, nudge your flight stick nose-up for a quarter second and return to center. Practice matching the magnitude and duration of your stick movement with the magnitude and duration of your throttle movements until you can keep your TVV close to the horizon line at all times as you "step forward" and "step back".

 

EDIT: One last thing -- as you take on fuel, the warthog will start gaining a tendency to climb more. I end up having to retrim at least once during the refuel to counter this effect.

 

Maaaan, I'll tell you what, kind of like Yurgon said, once you finally connect for the first time, everything changes.

 

I'm not sure how sensitive 15 % curve is on that stick, but with old logitech sticks I used to fly with, 30% curve seemed more appropriate.

 

With the TM Warthog, 0 to 5% curve is fine.

 

That being said, if you're "bucking" your wings too much - then adjust curves.

 

If you're pretty much spot on with keeping your wings level to the tanker, then your curves should be fine.

 

If you're pitching too much, then you're probably looking too near-sighted. Try looking right above the HUD box on the windshield at the underside of the tanker's NOSE and keep that the same throughout the whole process.

 

 

SERIOUSLY, TO ALL AAR NEWBIES, PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:

 

Do NOT try to "move" the stick to make corrections. Instead try to merely "flex" your hand(s).

 

You shouldn't "Death Grip" the HOTAS, but you're really looking for the MOST MINUTE, TEENY TINY inputs possible.

 

 

----

Start yourself out around 150 feet back from the boom and speed match the tanker, "settle" into formation, pretend you're refueling right there, and get smooth.

 

RELAX!!!! BREATHE!!!! Calm yourself, slow your breathing and your heart rate. Just get comfortable and naturally sedate yourself a bit.

 

Next, barely flex the throttle up the smallest amount and close the gap at no more than 1 knot faster than the tanker's speed.

 

---

 

Obviously, if you're PRO at AAR, you don't have to take things so slowly on pre-connect, but for those that are newer / struggling with it, it's EXCELLENT practice and should significantly help you develop the skills you need to do it on command.

 

----

 

If you have a split-throttle HOTAS, one of the best ways to control speed is to "walk" the throttles up and down to match speed. Remember these adjustments are still barely noticeable.

 

-----

 

 

Lastly, I cannot recall who said it, but I think it was best said that (para-phrasing): "You are never 'in' formation, but instead always trying to 'get in' formation" as concerning formation flying.

 

Just remember that you're always dealing with a changing environment and you're always making corrections to keep yourself at the perfect speed and position.

 

AND SERIOUSLY, Remember to BREATHE and calm yourself. The better you can do this; relaxing yourself, the easier it becomes to get it right ;)

 

Good Luck!

Edited January 9, 2014 by Xavven

[ScottishMartialArts]

I was never able to successfully do it until I got the Warthog HOTAS. Then, I nailed it on like my second or third try. That said, one key is constant micro-adjustments of throttle, kinda like how flying the Huey demands constant micro-adjustments of the cyclic. Likewise, you will want to find a reference point for the tanker empennage in your canopy. In otherwords, find a visual reference point in your canopy, and keep the tail section of the tanker fixed in that reference point. Ignore the boom, just keep the tail section in your reference point and you should get a good connection. Once connected, focus on the reference point but out of the corner of your eye watch the scale on the boom, and microadjust throttle to keep the scale in the green.

[Snaut]

I was never able to successfully do it until I got the Warthog HOTAS. Then, I nailed it on like my second or third try. That said, one key is constant micro-adjustments of throttle, kinda like how flying the Huey demands constant micro-adjustments of the cyclic. Likewise, you will want to find a reference point for the tanker empennage in your canopy. In otherwords, find a visual reference point in your canopy, and keep the tail section of the tanker fixed in that reference point. Ignore the boom, just keep the tail section in your reference point and you should get a good connection. Once connected, focus on the reference point but out of the corner of your eye watch the scale on the boom, and microadjust throttle to keep the scale in the green.

 

If you don't have TM Warthog don't get discouraged. It's not hard to do it with a less precise stick (Saitek Cyborg here) The throttle inputs translate into speed changes with some delay, so it's more about anticipating that changes. It doesn't need to be super fast or super precise, but the timing matters.

It's akin to keeping neutral buoyancy with breaths while diving and the rhythm is similar. Add some throttle if you see/anticipate the boom extend, reduce back before it goes back in the green, giving it time to slow down.

 

Keep the tanker with stick inputs more or less on the same spot of your canopy and concentrate on the throttle. Don't worry about keeping the position as much as the distance. If you don't exceed the boom angle, the boom operator will manage.

[mr_mojo97]

Pinefang - you've not mentioned which version you're using. DCSW 1.2.6 is broken for A2A refuelling so you won't be able to anyways (it's working again in 1.2.7 though.

[Jimmytime]

A2A refueling is like riding a unicycle on a beach ball. The more you over correct the worse it gets. I'm good at neither.

[Knudmacher]

Under the tankers fuselage, between the wings and the boom, there are some black marks. No idea what that is. But when i place them in the center and about two thirds up in the window above the hud, i find myself in a very good position for tanking. From there it's just regular formation flying, keep your eyes on the marks and the boom will take care of itself.

 

The key is to keep that formation with as little control inputs as humanly possible. Practice formation flying, not just in the tanker formation (behind and below), but all kinds. Fly side by side, echelon, left and right. Try to change formation controllably. For example, fly echelon right formation and slowly slide over to the left side. Don't just break the formation and then return to a new one, but keep control of your position even while moving, if that makes sense.

 

The first few hours i tried, i totally sucked before i got the point: Fix the other plane with reference to your cockpit. Make it look like it's painted on your canopy. Mess around a little (gently) with your flight controls to learn which input is required to move this 'canopy painting' in what direction (this depends on what formation you fly of course). When my muscle memory slowly started to learn this skill, I realized that the throttle simply controls my distance to the plane, NOT direction, as that is done by my steering hand subconsciously.

 

Practice flying 60 degrees to the other plane, that is 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock from you, and keep constant distance. Then you will find that flying in the refueling formation is actually quite easy in comparison.

 

The more you try, the smaller amount of control inputs you will need. After a while it seems you don't need to move your hand att all, all you need to do is 'think' where to go. And suddenly you can fill up tank after tank without a single disconnect.

 

My method for tanking now looks something like this:

 

1. Join formation with the tanker (black marks between wings and boom fixed two thirds up in my 'above-hud-window' or whatever it's called). Distance does not matter here, but you should be able to see your reference point of course.

 

2. Trim out! This is important because if you don't you won't be able to relax as much in your hand and your moves will become jerky.

 

3. Keep the marks fixed and control your distance using only the throttle. Close in on the tanker gently.

 

4. When the boom gets in the way, ignore it completely, keep looking at the marks to keep them fixed at the exact same position at all times.

 

5. Keep controlling my distance using ONLY the throttle as input, and the color gradient on the boom as visual feedback. My eyes are fixed to the marks on the tanker, while observing the boom color in my periferal vision.

 

6. Tank is full.

 

If my "black mark position reference" does not work for you, try another one. It might be my TrackIR settings that's distorting my viewpoint.

 

Perhaps this is useful tips? Perhaps not.

Anyway this is how I learned it and it actually works consistently.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Best advice I can give:

First learn to fly in close formation before you try to refuel.

 

-Set up a mission with your tanker at, say 16000 feet, 190 kts.

-Give the tanker a straight flight path for 80 miles or so.

-Add your A-10 within a few miles of distance.

-Start the mission.

-Close in.

-Don't contact the tanker. Don't ask for refuel. Just get into formation.

-Follow him.

-Trim and move your throttle gently back and forth to stay right behind him at the exact same speed.

-When you feel comfortable: get closer. Until you are in refueling position (check Derbysiegers video and memorize what you should see and what it looks like from your cockpit).

-Follow him. And try to fly as calm as you can.

-Until you get bored ;)

If you feel nervous: drop back a little bit.

 

By leaving out the refueling itself you'll feel much more comfortable behind the KC-135.

Learning to fly in close formation and learn how to refuel at the same time is the best way to get frustrated.

It is simply too much... :joystick:

 

If you own a throttle with two levers use just one engine at a time.

The A-10 will behave much more predictable. Real world pilots manage their thrust that way and it works pretty good.

Move the throttle gently back and forth to match the speed as precise as possible.

 

Happy refueling ;)

 

(And don't forget: Besides landing on a boat, aerial refueling is the hardest thing you can do sitting in a plane.

It is hard to learn.)

[Seil]

If you own a throttle with two levers use just one engine at a time.

The A-10 will behave much more predictable. Real world pilots manage their thrust that way and it works pretty good.

 

SOME pilots do it this way... apparently.

[nigglascage]

I couldn't refuel without curves when I started playing DCS so I've set them to 20 (TM Hotas Warthog) with a dead zone of 1. A few months later I removed the curves and dead zone to see if I can do it without them and to my surprise flying felt way more intuitive. I just love the linear response which I previously thought was simply impossible to refuel with. Has anyone made the same experience?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Hmmm.. I'm using your gear and could refuel properly.. Set curves to each pitch and roll @ 40 no deadzone, and pro throttle curves as per a recommendation given by (HiJack)... Will dig up that post and repost here. It just worked wonders and I literally cried of joy the first time I completed in CH setup. Fear not, help is on the way!!! (Y)

 

EDIT:

 

Found it:

 

I set my curves like this

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1727555&postcount=17

 

for CH pro throttle and never looked back.. This curve saved my life and now I can contact whenever I like..

 

Just a few reminders though:

 

1- Do not chase the boom

2- Trim nose down 2 clicks and offset with pull on stick. That way when you get fuel, your drag will increase and force you below the tanker, which is safer than hitting the tail/ boom assembly (!).

3- Use a very good headset to detect faint decibels of engine.

4- Be stubborn and do not give in!!!

 

(Y)

Edited January 16, 2014 by WildBillKelsoe

[Wolf Rider]

Best advice I can give:

First learn to fly in close formation before you try to refuel.

 

-Set up a mission with your tanker at, say 16000 feet, 190 kts.

-Give the tanker a straight flight path for 80 miles or so.

-Add your A-10 within a few miles of distance.

-Start the mission.

-Close in.

-Don't contact the tanker. Don't ask for refuel. Just get into formation.

-Follow him.

-Trim and move your throttle gently back and forth to stay right behind him at the exact same speed.

-When you feel comfortable: get closer. Until you are in refueling position (check Derbysiegers video and memorize what you should see and what it looks like from your cockpit).

-Follow him. And try to fly as calm as you can.

-Until you get bored ;)

If you feel nervous: drop back a little bit.

 

By leaving out the refueling itself you'll feel much more comfortable behind the KC-135.

Learning to fly in close formation and learn how to refuel at the same time is the best way to get frustrated.

It is simply too much... :joystick:

 

If you own a throttle with two levers use just one engine at a time.

The A-10 will behave much more predictable. Real world pilots manage their thrust that way and it works pretty good.

Move the throttle gently back and forth to match the speed as precise as possible.

 

Happy refueling ;)

 

(And don't forget: Besides landing on a boat, aerial refueling is the hardest thing you can do sitting in a plane.

It is hard to learn.)

 

 

good advice, but don't forget to trim with fuel flap => Open

[Pinefang]

I am using version 1.2.6. What do you mean it is broken? The only other problem I have is on the radio at 150 megh.

[BigMotor]

You've been attempting the impossible. When 1.27 comes out you will be an ace at AAR!

[Seil]

Yeah, you've probably achieved the best possible on 1.2.6....

 

When you connect, the tanker calls back "Transfer complete" immediately and disconnects you.

 

Doesn't matter what you do, the tanker will always immediately disconnect on 1.2.6.

 

The 1.2.7 beta has it working again.

[VWJ]

I guess I'll do a bit of grave digging here, finally after years of flying the Warthog I got into AAR last night. What are the tips and tricks for connecting to the boom? And I mean really JUST for the connection.

From what I gathered the boom operator is simulated, so in theory I just need to fly my plane and the boom connects "on its own". That happened only once. Then I got disconnected and could not reconnect. I even cancelled AAR and requested it again, still nothing. The boom was moving but did not connect.

 

Sooo, is it just my flying or is the boom operator AI somehow … unreliable?

[9echo]

Hi @VWJ, when you disconnect from the tanker before you're done refueling, you need to reset the refueling system by pressing the nose wheel steering button. Your aerial refuel status indicator to the right of the HUD below your compass will then state "Ready" when you are good to go again, and the boom will reconnect once you're in position behind the tanker. Try that and let us know how you get on.

[Yurgon]

From what I gathered the boom operator is simulated, so in theory I just need to fly my plane and the boom connects "on its own".

 

"in theory" being the operative term here. :music_whistling:

 

That's exactly how it should be, but the DCS boom operator actually chases your nose, yet never connects on his own. You actually have to fly the receptacle into the boom in order to get a connection.

 

After any disconnect, just like 9echo says, you need to cycle the refueling system, which can be confirmed by the Refuel Status Light showing "READY" on the right HUD frame again.

 

And don't worry: it takes a lot of practice to get good at this. ;)

[VWJ]

Hi @VWJ, when you disconnect from the tanker before you're done refueling, you need to reset the refueling system by pressing the nose wheel steering button. Your aerial refuel status indicator to the right of the HUD below your compass will then state "Ready" when you are good to go again, and the boom will reconnect once you're in position behind the tanker. Try that and let us know how you get on.

 

Oh crap, ok. Should have re-read the flight manual, got used to refueling in the Hornet where this is not required. Thanks, I'll try again.