MMjoy

[rabidscoobie]

Thank you again.

 

Now it makes more sense to me. Im sure I'll have another question or 2.

 

My boards are the generic Sharkfun Pro micro style.

 

 

Now here you said:

 

"The 4 or 5 way switch (e.g. Alps) is connected like any other button, generally they have a pin common to all buttons, wire this for a matrix column (the ones without diodes).

 

You need understand well how the matrix work before start, matrix allow use few wires, but create a "spider web" inside joystick.

 

For the top part of grip the ideal is "decode" the matrix already used there.

 

Decoding the matrix used on grip and adding here 1/2 buttons make the work simple."

 

 

I believe the 5 ways I ordered were the Alps. All the posts Ive seen for wiring up matrix show use of diodes,I have not seen any diagrams for wiring a matrix without diodes.

 

Im reading alot on wiring while I wait for the sticks to come in. The stick I feel will be simple so I'll start with it first but the throttle will be a bit more trouble I feel with what I want to do.

 

The throttle is a non pro version. I didnt find out much about it really.

Does the non Pro have just 1 hat and buttons or does it also have an analog thumbstick? From a pic I saw it looked like it had 6 buttons, 2 hats, or 1 hat and 1 thumbstick. But info wise I couldnt find much on it. For the price of them both around $30 shipped Im not gonna complain.

Edited April 25, 2017 by rabidscoobie

[rabidscoobie]

I forgot to add,

Is there a certain type of USB cable that needs to be used with these boards?

 

When I first plugged in the Micro board my PC didnt detect anything plugged in. I had used a phone USB cord,tried another phone cable and nothing. I used my Xbox One charging cable and it worked just fine.

 

I didnt know there was really a difference between USB cables.

[Sokol1_br]

"The 4 or 5 way switch (e.g. Alps) is connected like any other button, generally they have a pin common to all buttons, wire this for a matrix column (the ones without diodes).

 

I believe the 5 ways I ordered were the Alps. All the posts Ive seen for wiring up matrix show use of diodes,I have not seen any diagrams for wiring a matrix without diodes.

 

 

What I saying is: one of the matrix wires (is two, called row and columns) don't has diodes, then wire the common pin of Alps switch in the wire without diodes.

 

The diode can be placed between button pin and row or column, but not in both.

 

For MMjoy2 matrix if I remember correct is in row.

 

 

Im reading alot on wiring while I wait for the sticks to come in. The stick I feel will be simple so I'll start with it first but the throttle will be a bit more trouble I feel with what I want to do.

 

The stick is more easy to do, even if you plan add 1/2 buttons, but is need know their matrix.

 

In FightSter stick the matrix is 5x4, in CombatSTick I believe that is 7x2 (6 press buttons + 2x4 HAT = 14 buttons).

 

The only way to know is take a multimeter (or improvise a tester with one LED and battery) and discover what wire of grip connector combine with another when press a button.

 

Is probable that some buttons has diodes near, take note of all this.

 

Knowing this, you don't need do nothing more in grip, just a plug for grip connector, wired to Arduino accord with the matrix that you detect.

 

The throttle is a non pro version. I didnt find out much about it really.

Does the non Pro have just 1 hat and buttons or does it also have an analog thumbstick? From a pic I saw it looked like it had 6 buttons, 2 hats, or 1 hat and 1 thumbstick. But info wise I couldnt find much on it. For the price of them both around $30 shipped Im not gonna complain.

 

The non PRO (or even PRO) throttle gameport don't have analog thumbstick - at time (end of 1990's) thumbstick don't exist in joysticks.

 

Here's one CH Throttle (non PRO) - wrong announced as PRO throttle:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CH-Products-Pro-Throttle-USB-Flight-Simulator-Controller-/201890630697?hash=item2f019e8c29:g:U~UAAOSwhQhY7UhQ

 

1 - 4xHAT

3 - press buttons under this HAT

1 - 2x switch in index position

3 - press buttons

 

12 buttons.

 

BTW - I you want can exchange this two way switich with stick left side red button, one fit in place of another. Notice that in my conversion in SimHQ I did this, but the PRO throttle came with 4 way HAT, since the owner of that "HOTAS" has small hands, the HAT under index are discomfortable for use, and prefer the press button there.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[rabidscoobie]

Gotcha.

 

Yeah I thought about trying to swap out the 2 way with the red thumb button if it would fit,right now Im just guessing since I havent got it in the mail yet.

 

With the info you've given so far Im able to plan more on what I want to do and read up on the way to wire it up nicely.

[Sokol1_br]

Is there a certain type of USB cable that needs to be used with these boards?

 

Typically this Chinese Arduino clones use mini-B connector, but some can use micro-B, so look at specifications of the one you buy.

 

Get a 1,8m cable with USB mini-B on one side and USB-A in the other.

 

Optionally can get a short cable with mini-B to USB-A or B female connector, and place this female connector in stick case wall, so can easily replace your USB cable without need to open the stick, for the case of pet's around. :)

 

See one of these short cable with female USB-A connector in base of this FlightSTick+ SFS conversion:

 

https://s24.postimg.org/97cxl60l1/CS01.jpg

 

I will prefer use USB-B female connector, since USB-B to USB-A cable is used in printers and easy to find.

 

This "modernization" is CH FlightStick 4 buttons + HAT, but can give you some tips about the process - notice that grip connector plug remain original:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4329494/ch-flightstick-pro-ch-pro-pedal-usberization#Post4329494

Edited April 25, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[rabidscoobie]

Yes my board uses the micro b cable.

But I tried 2 cables and the PC would not see the board plugged in, no USB sound saying I plugged it in and nothing shown in devices.

The PC would not see the Micro board until I used the cable that charges my Xbox One Controller. Physically the cables all looked exactly alike.

 

So I wasnt sure if the micro boards required some specific USB micro B cable. And yes I'm gonna get a couple those short cables but didnt want buy any until I knew about this issue here.

 

Cable from my Cell....didnt allow the board to connect

Cable from my Tablet...didnt allow the board to connect

XB1 cable...worked perfect.

 

Thanks again.

[rabidscoobie]

Well update on the different USB cables issue.

 

If I use any cable before a firmware update, it will not detect the board plugged into PC, but once the firmware is loaded any of the USB cables I have work.

 

Only the XBOX One Charging USB cable will allow for updating the firmware....at least the cables I have.

Edited April 26, 2017 by rabidscoobie

[Sokol1_br]

When you plug the Arduino before flash the firmware Windows don't see because is not a USB device.

 

After flash the firmware became a HID USB device, but not a "joystick", will be a "joystick" after you set the parameters (axes, buttons) in MMJoySetup and "Save for device", after will work "PnP.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[rabidscoobie]

When you plug the Arduino before flash the firmware Windows don't see because is not a USB device.

 

After flash the firmware became a HID USB device, but not a "joystick", will be a "joystick" after you set the parameters (axes, buttons) in MMJoySetup and "Save for device", after will work "PnP.

 

Yes I know that part.

But what I am meaning is that unless I use the Xbox cable before a firmware update I do not even get power to the board,no power,no lights....nothing at all. To do the firmware update the board will only accept the xbox cable to do that and the others I tried gave nothing.

So for some reason it requires a specific cable to power up the board before firmware upload.

 

I hope I didnt sound rude,we are just getting our communications mixed up a bit. Guess it could be just specific to the micro pro's i bought.

Edited April 26, 2017 by rabidscoobie

[sc_neo]

I have only glanced over this thread but have a short question concerning max number of buttons and axis one can implement. So the mmjoy software is able to handle 128 buttons, but the real limitation seems to be the solder points on the hardware boards, right? So what is the current max number of buttons/switches/axis one can build into a single windows recognized mmjoy device?

[rabidscoobie]

I have only glanced over this thread but have a short question concerning max number of buttons and axis one can implement. So the mmjoy software is able to handle 128 buttons, but the real limitation seems to be the solder points on the hardware boards, right? So what is the current max number of buttons/switches/axis one can build into a single windows recognized mmjoy device?

 

 

From what I have gathered with info from Sokol is this:

 

Windows limitation 32+POV HAT (4) =36 buttons and MMJOY allows up to 6 axis.

This page and the previous page he is explaining basically what your asking. Im just learning the Arduino board and have not gotten into wiring it up just yet.

The info I just gave are just copy paste from what Sokol has told me over the last couple pages of this thread.

Im waiting on my Joysticks that Im converting to USB and modding to come in.

[Sokol1_br]

Yes I know that part.

But what I am meaning is that unless I use the Xbox cable before a firmware update I do not even get power to the board,no power,no lights....nothing at all.

 

Strange, the two that I get work with generic USB-mini B short cable.

 

Well, this Arduinos are "Chinese clones", can't expect much. :)

[Brewnix]

From what I have gathered with info from Sokol is this:

 

Windows limitation 32+POV HAT (4) =36 buttons and MMJOY allows up to 6 axis.

This page and the previous page he is explaining basically what your asking. Im just learning the Arduino board and have not gotten into wiring it up just yet.

The info I just gave are just copy paste from what Sokol has told me over the last couple pages of this thread.

Im waiting on my Joysticks that Im converting to USB and modding to come in.

Yes, the limitations is how many pins you need for what functions. I used the Promicro cause its the pretty cheap to buy and it still does alot for axis and buttons. So that's why I place all my buttons on a shift register you pile all your buttons on to them and 5 wires back to the board which free up more pins for axis!

[Sokol1_br]

Originally Posted by sc_neo View Post

I have only glanced over this thread but have a short question concerning max number of buttons and axis one can implement. So the mmjoy software is able to handle 128 buttons, but the real limitation seems to be the solder points on the hardware boards, right? So what is the current max number of buttons/switches/axis one can build into a single windows recognized mmjoy device?

 

From what I have gathered with info from Sokol is this:

 

Windows limitation 32+POV HAT (4) =36 buttons and MMJOY allows up to 6 axis.

 

Hope to don't confuse the thing more. :D

 

This Windows limitation don't apply for DCS, in this game you can use up to 128 buttons, but... :P

 

But, for the case of re-wire old CH stick is convenient use Diode Matrix to avoid remake the trails of PCB under HAT's in joystick (in throttle will be ease change since is only one HAT).

 

Happens that Arduino PRO Micro* don't has input pins for create a, e.g. 10x12 matrix and for 8 axis input. So is need limit the matrix size and number of axis.

 

Using a Arduino PRO Micro, for use a 6x6 matrix (32 buttons +POV HAT) is need limit axis inputs in 6:

 

Matrix is BC x BR, ADC axis input.

 

Or reduce one line and one row in matrix (5x5 = 25 buttons) to free 2 pins for use 8 axis inputs.

 

This can be overcomed using Shift Register boards chained for buttons inputs, but this implicate in re-make the trails of PCB under HAT's, so the choice is matter of compromises.

 

Other option is use external ADC (MCP3208 ) for axis input, this allow use up to 8 axis (and increase resolution from 10 to 12 bits) and will take only 4 pins plus +5V, Gnd, and so free some pins for increase matrix size.

 

But will add complication (ideally a external power source for MCP3208 ), not needed in simple re-wire a old gameport joystick.

 

*Arduino Micro and Teensy ++2.0 has more pins for inputs.

 

Instead this "complication" using one Arduino PRO Micro for each device will be more practical, they cost little, and fit 32 buttons in joystick grip... ;)

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sokol1_br
mistype

[sc_neo]

haha ok. I plan to upgrade my T.16000m to be fully equal to a Warthog button/head wise by canabalizing those 12 bottom buttons and adding a bunch of 4 way switches and buttons at the joystick top. My plan is to make one of the 12 buttons a modifier key which is wired to all remaining 11 buttons (with a resistor in one direction) to end up with 22 buttons in addition to what the t.16000 has at your finger tips already.

 

When i read about that mmjoy-arduino business, i just hat a wet dream of buying one arduino board and having 128 buttons including 8axis to play with...hooking up all buttons i liked to the T.16000 without tinkering with its electronics and in the process, maybe building a helo collective later. But as you guys suggest, you end up with just enough to setup one device properly. Still, very interesting, especially once i think of building a collective.

 

Hrm, i just have to read a bit more to make a could call on whether to follow through with my original plan of using the 12 bottom buttons of the T.16000 or leave that as it is, and add all the stuff physically on the joystick but wire it seperately with mmjoy. It'll be cheaper for sure. Which is more practical you think?

[Sokol1_br]

Years ago I disassembly my T.1600M , thinking in make something similar, migrate base buttons for grip, wire rudder and throtte axis (are low resolution, 8 bits) in one thumbstic, and place the gimbal inside a PCB tube cap.

 

I make a box for place top of grip (cut the HAT area off) for place HATs, button, thumbstick, but since I don't really need this joystick and never was ably to define the layout for this"FrankenStick"*, he remain disassembled. :))

 

In T.16000M is easy migrate left side buttons, there is used wires, in the left side will be more laborious because buttons in this side is just trail contacts over PCB (like in cheap gamepads), will be need solder wires in this contact area.

 

Talking in "FrankenStick, see this "creations". :)

 

I liked the "Mig'ish".

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[sc_neo]

Yeah you and i were talking about that in dec/january in the 'finding the right switches' thread. Sokol, what do think is easier for upgrading my T.16000 to the kind of 'Frankenstick'. Going the migration route with a resistor to make one button a modifier essentially ending up with 22 new buttons? Or would be less hussle just getting a 10 dollar micro pro board and adding the buttons i need as a seperate DX device via mmjoy? For the latterm, i wouldn't have to touch the t.16000 boards, but would have to 'read up' on mmjoy and arduino stuff.

[Sokol1_br]

A easy way is get a gameport (more cheap) CH F-16 FighterStick =16 buttons + POV HAT and install their grip in T.16000M (same buttons count).

Need decode the matrix used in T.16000M and adapt for FitghetStick 5x4 matrix.

But "FrankenStick" the T.16000M grip will be more fun. :)

 

To make a button, e.g. install one under little finger a "modifier" depends on how you want this work.

 

The easy way is through software (e.g. Joy2key) or through game controls if allowed, DCSW and CloD controls allow you add a button as modifier for other buttons, but other games no, e.g. IL-2 BoS allow use only Windows modifiers - Alt, Ctrl, Shift... In this way this button is sired like any other joy button.

 

Be hardware will be complicated, a possible way is wire 3 columns of matrix in a multiple pins momentary switch.

Don't know if this kind of switch exist, but removing the latch mechanism of one these maybe do the trick - if find space for fit that big switch inside grip. :)

 

http://chinadaier.en.made-in-china.com/product/RBWQPrgJabcN/China-PCB-Solder-Dpdt-Latching-Push-Button-Micro-Switch-KZJ2X2-A-.html

 

Button released (default) columns 1,2,3 is connect to rows and allow use buttons 1 to 16, with button pressed columns change for 4,5,6 connected to rows and allow use buttons 17 to 32.

A forum colleague did this - but for few buttons in this DIY stick.

 

Cobra M5 do this but using a 3 position slider switch, so 7 buttons on grip (exclude triggers and POV HAT) can be: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10, 11, 12, 23, 14, 15, 16 or 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 (may not exact numbers).

 

But this way lack flexibility, you are changing all buttons operations, and not one or another like the first way allow.

 

BTW - MMjoySetup allow set one button to be modifier for another buttons, a "shift".

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[rabidscoobie]

Strange, the two that I get work with generic USB-mini B short cable.

 

Well, this Arduinos are "Chinese clones", can't expect much. :)

 

True.

I have them working fine so far.

Just got to have that Xbox cable for firmware upload...weird.

 

And you answered another question I was wondering about:

 

"BTW - MMjoySetup allow set one button to be modifier for another buttons, a "shift". "

 

So I can use 1 button as shift for the others it I wanted....:thumbup:

[rabidscoobie]

My plan is to make one of the 12 buttons a modifier key which is wired to all remaining 11 buttons (with a resistor in one direction) to end up with 22 buttons in addition to what the t.16000 has at your finger tips already.

 

 

I did the same thing to my x52 stick awhile back. It has 6 buttons at the base and I just ran some extra wires from them to add a thumb button and a couple of those long style tact switches to the right upper side of the stick so I could just bump my index finger up into 1 of them.

Actually worked better than I thought it would.

[sc_neo]

Did you double up on these 6 buttons with one of them becoming a modifier key that is wired to the other 5 buttons with a resistor in one direction ending up with 10 instead of 6 buttons? If so, does it work ok?

[rabidscoobie]

Did you double up on these 6 buttons with one of them becoming a modifier key that is wired to the other 5 buttons with a resistor in one direction ending up with 10 instead of 6 buttons? If so, does it work ok?

 

No.

All I did was solder 2 wires to each button I wanted to use to extend them up into the grip. The original buttons are still intact and functional, I just have the option to use them without using my other hand or taking my hand off the grip. So its still 6 buttons of which is more than I needed for my purpose on he x52 stick.

With the Saitek software I can use the pinkie switch as a shift button that will also allow thos 6 buttons to become 6 more buttons for the ability to have 12 total.....like I said way more than I needed.

 

Since all I did was basically copy those 6 buttons it still functions exactly as it originally did,just a different button placement.

 

I even did something similar on the throttle. The middle mouse click button and the other thumb mouse button are just aweful either in use or placement on it. So I added 2 buttons under where my fingers rest on throttle and linked the buttons the same a I did on the stick.

 

Made it more ergonomic and ease of use of which is all I was going for with it.

 

I have done similar to other sticks through the years. I have no use for buttons at the base of the joystick, so I just copy those buttons to added buttons on the grip.

 

My only issue with the x52 is I HATE the software and drivers plus the crappy centering spring it has. Makes precise movements and aiming a chore. I tried different mods for it but none really did much for that issue.

 

Its one of my main reasons for modding the CH HOTAS I got coming...well that and I got the setup cheap(gameport connections). So I'll either get it setup and modded to my preference or totally screw it up...:music_whistling: Either way Im not gonna loose much since I already most of the basic parts for the mod/conversion.

Anytime and old joystick,mouse, gamepad etc dies I rip them apart for anything that can be reused on other projects.

Edited April 26, 2017 by rabidscoobie

[rabidscoobie]

True.

I have them working fine so far.

Just got to have that Xbox cable for firmware upload...weird.

 

And you answered another question I was wondering about:

 

"BTW - MMjoySetup allow set one button to be modifier for another buttons, a "shift". "

 

So I can use 1 button as shift for the others it I wanted....:thumbup:

 

After thinking about your above quote here I got to thinking.

 

Since I am using an Arduino Micro in the stick and another in the throttle there is no need to connect the 2 together so as to use them separately if needed.

But you said that MMJOY would allow you to use a "Shift Modifier" button, since Im using 2 boards does that mean that each stick will need its own "Shift" button?

 

OR can I for example use the pinkie button on the stick as a "shift modifier" to also control the buttons on the throttle?

Or will I need to link the 2 controllers with a cable to achieve this?

[rabidscoobie]

So I played with trying to learn to wire up the Micro Pro. I only did it in PS so not to screw anything up.If I get it right on paper then I'll know Im doing it right on the real parts.

 

So in my diagram I acted as if I was wiring it up, do I get it right or is there anything wrong with my way of thinking here?

 

[Sokol1_br]

If each device has his own controller, need place a "shift" in each.

 

For make one "shift" in hardware (MMjoy2) work for both you need leave the throttle "brainless" and use the controller inside joystick, like is X-52 HOTAS.