allesok

As a preliminary conclusion I would like to thank all that discussed here. What is going on here is a part of what is going on in the USA, and certainly not only there, but in the whole world: http://www.alternet.org/story/149531/the_class_war_launched_by_americas_wealthiest_is_getting_more_savage?page=entire We are being bluffed and lied to and they seek sneaky ways to introduce regulations that will increase their power at the loss of free choice for us and our freedom in general. But we don’t accept that and fight back by all means. I decide what is good for me, not they, and I defend my freedom to make the choice. That is democracy in contrast to the totalitarian dictatorship they are trying to introduce through the back door, wrapped-up nicely in order to deceive us, so that we shouldn’t realize what is going on before it is too late. What they say will protect us is in reality designed to protect them and their power. And they try to manipulate out minds and twist our sight to not see that, or not to know what is really going on before we are trapped in it. But who is still able to think for himself and herself can separate the chaff from the wheat and recognize the wolves in sheep-skin. Some of those who in this Forum defend the tricks we discuss are either not yet able to do that or belong to these wolves. They fight in vain (and apparently some unknowingly, not understanding what they are really doing) for the NWO and will not be the ones who laugh last. When they can only drink “monsanted” beer with a chemical replacement of the hops and brewed only from genetically manipulated cereals, that tastes accordingly and harms their bodies in the long run to make them good customers of Big Pharma’s dictatorship without a free choice of therapy, they will regret not acting differently when they had time to do it – as bitterly as their beer then tastes… And to those who joined recently: do read older posts to get the whole picture!

You are so right, and so was he! Another version is found here (with appropriate illustrations): This may well be a reason why he was killed … It is in this spirit that some of us write in this post, even though there are also those here who would like to kill us. @GGTharos Para nos = for us, even for you …

@Geskes Search the Internet worldwide (and not only Dutch pages) and you will find A LOT! But do enter "coDex alimentarius" (not "coMex alimentarius")...

“I respect your argument, but find your logic erratic and generalized.” This reminds me of a movie about Kaspar Hauser that I recently saw. A professor wanted to test his logical reasoning and presented to him the old riddle of the two villages. In one village all tell the truth, in the other all lie. “So what question should you ask to find out from what village a person is?” Kaspar hesitated and the professor told him the traditional solution based on double negation. Kaspar said: “I have another solution” “There IS no other solution!” “I would ask him if he is a frog. If he tells the truth, he says ‘no’, and if he lies, he says ‘yes’.” “I am a professor of mathematics and logic and I cannot accept such an answer!” The poor narrow-minded professor could not accept another logic than his own. Maybe some in this Forum are like him and can only see their own subjective logic. Others are more open-minded and can objectively respect another logic than their own…

A "rule by the elite" is what we certainly don't want, since the "elite" is self-chosen and not really those who are fit to rule. This only leads to power, corruption, widening gaps between rich and poor, even enslavement and the like and it is really evil. What we want is true democracy and respect of the will of the people and that consumers have the right to get the products they want and not not what the "elite" for profit likes to decide as "being good" for them. Liberty, fraternity and equality. It was never realized, but now it needs to be more than ever. Instead of reading Plato, I prefer that everyone is guaranteed the freedom to think for himself and to live his own life as he wants to, including the choice of therapy if he needs one.

Again 2-3 guys fail to make themselves funny about the facts that I reported. They cannot have seen the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKxtyuzL-s, or they couldn’t have answered so soon. The video is 40 minutes long and very educative. That means that they don’t know what they are trying to ridicule in a stereotype manner. Here is something more for you to learn from: http://twilightearth.com/news/the-world-according-to-monsanto-full-documentary/ – but it is about 2 hours long. If you don’t first see any of them through and know what it is about: how can you expect to be taken seriously with your comments? Did you already get some mind-manipulating drugs, maybe? I cannot fully make myself free from the suspicion that you are hired to ridicule serious discussions about these things and serve their interests. Here is more: http://www.whale.to/b/codex_h.html Now don’t try to twist the discussion away by stating that it is about medical herbs and not the codex. It is about both, since the two are two sides of one NWO coin. They go “hand in hand”. I already showed that above. But you may have (intentionally?) overlooked that. Quote: “Proving the efficaciousness of hippy herbs. The science quacks are pissed off they have to jump through hoops to prove their stuff works and is safe, while the hippies don’t, and can make any claims without studies.” It is well knows by insiders (and I was one!) that clinical studies are manipulated to get results more positive than real. When someone from Big Pharma requests a clinical study from the leader of a clinic, he also tells him (this will not be written in the contract) what results are expected, and it is the job of the testing physician to find a way to “prove” these results. If he doesn’t but rather states the truth in his report, he will get no more well-paid jobs for that company… and he will have trouble with his career. So he knows what he is up to. In similar ways “negative” results are produced in studies of herbs. For example a study of Echinacea’s effect on the common cold: they on purpose used the least effective parts of the herb and set the treatment in (with too low doses) after the cold already broke out. It should have been set in at the first sign that it is beginning. A “good” way to “prove” carcinogenicity is application irritation. The stuff is rubbed crudely into the skin of mice such that the repeated vigorous rubbing causes cancer after doing it long enough… not the substance. There are many tricks, and if you are entranced by them, this is the kind of world you are working towards: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ and https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Idiocracy ... we already have a bit of that now… Another true story which I have no reference to any more (my source is old) is this. In the 70es a researcher in some company investigated Laetrile and find it effective against cancer, He reported that – and lost his job. All his documents disappeared. It was discovered – also in the 70es – that when “research” in ways to cure cancer reaches a stage where it looks very promising, the project is cancelled. Such projects are there only to make the public believe that they would be serious. In reality no really effective “cure” is wanted, since this area of medicine is a real gold mine. What is wanted is a treatment that keeps the patient alive long enough to continue to make money with him, and if he is really cured (which of course happens, too), he was lucky…

Now here is another thing that is tightly tied to the medical herb ban, because – as I have explained – it is EFFECTIVELY a ban, even though it is design to not look like one. It is CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKxtyuzL-s and http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/ Two guys failed to make themselves funny above over my suggestion that tobacco, beer, wine etc. should also be banned. This, of course, was a suggestion ad absurdum… just to show how ridiculous it may get. But that is exactly what is going to come along with that effective ban, and it has become in effect December 31, 2010! It will with time, and that may take months or even a year or two, also concern beer, wine and fruit juices… Codex Alimentarius is not really separate from medical regulations on natural products, they are actually two sides of the same coin, since the one serves the other, and that very well. Are you, by the way, aware of the fact that SPICES like rosemary, sage, saffron, thyme, basil, cinnamon and many other have actually already become forbidden according to that codex? Not in the first place because they are also medical herbs, but because they are food! Forbidden food… Another regulation that is being planned is to forbid growing vegetables in you own garden. You should eat the genetically modified junk that will at the end become our only choice. This is how the NWO and the Zionists and the Masons are striving to control our HEALTH! Because with this codex, the health of the population will degrade massively with time and that gives the Big Pharma masses of new clients! Big Pharma and companies like Monsanto work hand in hand to achieve this. You become directly dependent on them for health and survival. Furthermore, the poor will die from malnutrition and then we get rid of them… And those, who can afford it, will not be given medicaments that cure, but medicaments that make them DEPENDENT, since they merely suppress symptoms and you have to consume them as long as you live. That is called market strategy! And those who cannot afford them will with time die away, so we get rid of them… We are already too many, anyway, on this planet to support what is they call “useless eaters”… Furthermore, drugs are being developed that will control our MINDS! To make us complacent zombies without any real own will, who do all they tell us. Even drugs that manipulate our memory! See http://www.naturalnews.com/030493_memories_PTSD.html... (If they allow us to use herbal medicine, they cannot reach almost everyone with that...) DO READ resp. VIEW THE LINKS AND THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND!

Of course it is a trick! After the first step of this regulation came into effect in Germany in July 2003, many good and effective remedies disappeared from the market, simply because the manufacturer couldn't afford the approval. In one case I know about, the manufacturer did go through the process and had to pay around EUR 120 000.-! For ONE product. Do you really think that such smaller companies can afford go through this for each and every product? The dirty trick is to make them give it up because they cannot pay for the approval! If the costs would be REASONABLE, it would be a very different thing. But they definitely are not, and that is made to be so ON PURPOSE. That purpose... It isn't just a matter of risking that the remedy wouldn't be approved. You will have to pay all the costs even if at the end you don't get the approval. And they who judge the application try all they can to deny the approval, SIMPLY BECAUSE EFFECTIVE HERBAL REMEDIES ARE NOT WANTED!

As I have pointed out several times here, this means that herbal use in medicine is effectively banned, since the cost for approval is, on purpose, so very high that smaller manufacturers cannot afford them and, therefore, will have to give up. This is the trick! Getting rid of competition, take a monopolistic control of the market, banning through the back door under a misleading name. Strange that this is so hard to understand!!!!

@GGTharos and X-man It seems to me that this thread is about banning herbs, isn’t it? Isn’t tobacco a herb? Aren’t, for example, ingredients in beer, wine and fruit juices herbal (derived from plants)?

@winz (and Jg2001 Rasputin) 34 years ago I was saved from becoming a dialysis patient by a homeopathic physician (a “real” physician, who had “converted” to homeopathy). I used to work in dialysis, so that I really know what I am talking about. My kidney disease was completely cured, using only homeopathics, in just a few months and since never returned. 6 years ago I had atrial fibrillation, which was converted in the clinic with chemical medicaments: Cordarone infusion, but that remedy has since been banned as unsafe by the FDA… Some time later I went to Germany to consult a “Heilpraktiker” who with herbal remedies had me so fast and well recovered that my cardiologist was surprised (I didn’t tell him what I had done, but just went to him for a check-ups required by the health insurance). I must admit that I first tried with another “Heilpraktiker”, who found that I could not trust, but then I found the right one. As there are good and bad physicians, there are also good and bad “Heilpraktiker”… There are quite a few persons who, besides the consultation of a “real” physician (for control and as required by the health insurance), also more or less secretly consult a “Heilpraktiker” and surprise their physicians with unusually good recoveries… The combination makes natural medicine to rather complementary medicine than alternative medicine and is the ideal solution for very many.

So if that is what you want, let us do it properly! Ban tobacco and all tobacco products. They are nothing but harmful, not only for the user but also for the environment of a smoker. Ban all alcohol products. Alcohol is poisonous and often derived from natural products, and such products are basically suspicious. Especially ban beer and wine, since they contain even more natural ingredients. Ban all fruit juices, since they are derived from basically suspicious natural products and contain potentially harmful vitamins and minerals. Allow only Coke and other drinks, which are safe, since they contain enough chemical additives. Of course, such a product (except tobacco) can be approved if passed through a proper approval procedure. This cannot be done globally, since then some individual producers could deviate from the regulations. To be safe, it must be done separately for each individual product. The majority of the producers will give up and quit because of the high approval cost they cannot afford, but some will remain and have their products approved, but at prices for their products at least the threefold of what they are now in order to recover the high expenses for approval. If you want to feel “safe”, you’ll have to pay! For the psychological health of the population, all computer games have to be banned, which exhibit violence (knives, guns, bombs, fists, fights, torture, killings…) and nudity (more than 20% skin exposed; burka is good!). The same for movies and videos. So what should be done with all the money from these expensive approval procedures? Lower taxes? Surely not! Better build and run working camps for the masses of people who loose their jobs, because they used to work in production, distribution and selling of natural products, or grow or gather the raw material for them. FEMA camps will be useful, since many of them are already built. This will secure a cheap and unpaid slave working force at the service of governments, society and accepted business.

I wonder if not a few in this forum are being paid by Big Pharma to write the junk the latter wants us to believe ... By the way: personal experience ("stuff") is better than ignorance ...

@EtherealN Well, my friend, you obviously have no idea and judge on hearsay. If you would have personal experience of the work of Heilpraktiker and the effects of remedies and treatments they give you, you would sing another song ... I have ...

There are conspiracy theories and conspiracy realities ... The latter will always blame us for being making up conspiracy theories ...

So I take it that you also believe in Santa Claus ...

“It's not fair to let people buy expensive products which basically doesn't do anything. Nothing to do with democracy, just simple ethics.” What makes you think that they buy them if they don't know that they work? It IS fair to let people have the choice! It is unfair to take it away from them! In some countries there are LICENSED natural healers, in Germany called “Heilpraktiker” (“healing practitioners”) who DO know what works and can cure effectively. They now will have their remedies taken away from them and many will have to give up their jobs. Democracy is to let people have the choice to go to a physician who practices chemical medicine or a “Heilpraktiker” who practices natural medicine. And don’t say that the latter are not doing a good job! If they didn’t, they would have disappeared from the “market” long ago. “What monopolization? You'll still be able to sell your hocus pocus herbs as cure, but you need to prove that they are a cure.” Of course the MONOPOLIZATION OF CHEMICAL MEDICINE! By means of regulations such that those who in smaller companies have since many decades manufactured and sold effective natural remedies CANNOT AFFORD to have the approval. If you have, say 20 products and each on the average contains 5 ingredients and you have to pay $ 50 000.- for each ingredient to get it approved, you would have to pay $ 5 millions! This is really an effective way to drag the economic carpet away from their feet and kill them. That is what this is all about! “Let's drop any kind of customer protection then.” Let’s drop the self-arranged protection of the profit of the big pharma! (See other posts by me above).

“There is a thing called Placebo” – and even if it in SOME cases would be a placebo effect AND IT WORKS!!!! What then? “ Certain alternative medicine might or might not work, and this is what the EU wants to clear up.” Do you also believe in Santa Clause? IT IS A MATTER OF KILLING COMPETITION FOR MONOPOLIZATION!!! “Let me just ask this, what is it that drives companies that work with alternative medicine?” It is the DEMAND from the customers who from own experience KNOW that it works! And the ones getting hurt by this are the weak (sick and poor) people who have their insurance waste money for them on chemical methods that in the end might not save their lives, instead of letting them have an individual and democratic choice about THEIR OWN LIFE...

And let me add something: You seem to believe that big pharma is controlled by politics? No, it is the other way around! THEY control POLITICS to get what they want! You have no idea how many politicians are manipulated, and how, by them. Either important politicians are actually bribed, but in sneaky ways the public will never know, or they make use of the fact that politicians are medical lay-men who don't understand these things at all. So big pharma “supports” them with their “advisers” (= agents, well paid for the purpose!) to make their minds up. Big pharma Sandoz in Basel in the 70es had a line of herbal remedies called ValVerde. So they did know that they work. The other chemical big pharma competitors were very critical to this and it didn't last long. I once knew a physician who worked in health care for the personnel in one of the big pharma companies in Basel. He suggested to the company to try the homeopathic principle in his work, and he lost his job! But that suggestion was, of course, very naive of him... Believe me, I have worked in the big pharma for years ... and I had quite a few looks “behind the curtain” ... (and I actually once myself was in a small group that went to a government for talks).

“If you want to market your wares as 'medicine' then you need to prove it works.” And that HAS been proven. In Germany they tried to stop herbal medicine in the 70es, but an outcry from the population made them change their mind and introduce a law that the manufacturers would have to prove within a 10 year period that it works and is safe. THEY PROVED IT!! Against the expectations of big chemical pharma… So then the next attempt was to introduce a new law in 2003 that requires approval of EACH INGREDIENT in the remedy. Herbal medicines usually have quite a few ingredients, which multiplies the cost up to at least a 100 000 $, or more. Chemical pharma remedies in most cases have only ONE active ingredient to pay for… and they can afford it. Even that barrier was partly overcome and some companies did pay the costs, but a number of them gave up and closed, since they couldn’t afford them. And that is just what big pharma wanted… But they didn’t get completely what they had wanted and couldn’t kill all the competition. So that will be why they now take the step to a full ban! “If crap like homeopathy really works then why aren't the big, evil Pharma companies selling it?” It DOES WORK, I have long personal experience with it. Have you tried it? How else will you know…? The very simple reason big pharma doesn’t sell it is that they can make HUNDREDS of % profit with chemical remedies, but maybe 20 % with homeopathics. Homeopathics cannot be patented… and you can have no monopoly with them… Isn’t it actually ignorant to think that herbal and homeopathic remedies would have survived being used for 50 or in some cases even 100-200 years IF THEY DIDN’T WORK? Would people really by them if they hadn’t experienced that they are effective? “They are only interested in developing stuff which passes the standards which are set.” Oh, my dear! Isn’t that naive… They SET the standards to suite them so that they can manipulate the market,,, And since big pharma is profit oriented, and that to HUNDREDS OF % (see above), do you really believe that they want patients to be cured rather quickly and thus loose them as “customers”? If patients are cured slowly, they make more money! And if they are not really cured at all, but the “medicine” rather suppresses symptoms so that they have to take them for the rest of there lives – WHAT A PROFIT!!! THAT is BIG BUSINESS!!! One must be quite a bit naive to believe otherwise…

See my last post above. The link had become wrong...

Sorry, something went wrong above! I wanted to draw the attention to http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/Society.htm and hope it will work this time. It is a suggestion to found a Society for Preservation of Knowledge About Natural Healing. And I do hope that the link will be right this time. If it again points to the start page, go to "English" and then find the file above. It is my hope that this message will be spread and that someone will pick the idea up and make something from it.I myself is as a retired pensioner not well in the position to do it.