Crumpp

BTW, Your whole hoopla about the two access panels being required is exactly why FW-190A8 production was delayed. They installed those access panels before pushing the type to the Luftwaffe. That is why deliveries took so long from production in the first FW-190A8's.

Has nothing to do with TU engines or the fact a hybrid motor was built. It simply states if an FW-190A8 gets a BMW801S engine, it becomes an FW-190A9. The production line making engines is completely seperate and not linked to any airframe. It just says once they start making engines, if one goes on an FW190A8 then that airplane is going to be called an FW-190A9. It does not say a damn thing about who installs the engine. That eliminates the R4 designation. http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm

And how is an FW-190A8 going to get a TS engine and become an FW-190A9???

No, it is not. Factually the Luftwaffe Depot maintenance facilities overhauled and recycled damaged aircraft all the time. That is exactly where White 1 came from as it started out an FW-190F8 as delivered from the factory and was converted to an FW-190A8 by the receiving yard/Depot Maintenance in Norway. When magic happens and a BMW801S motor appears upon an FW-190A8 it now to called an FW-190A9 and NOT an FW-190A8/R4.

GM-1 and Erhohte Notleistung could be used together. GM-1 and C3-Einsptrizung could not.

And Baubeschreibung 284 does not change a thing on FW-190A9 production. All FW-190A9's were built with BMW801S engines. Baubeschreibung 284 only speaks to older airframes using older engines that are re-engined with a BMW801S engine. Those aircraft are to be redesignated as an FW-190A9. The engine installation changes the type designation. No FW-190A?/R4...just FW-190A9's and whatever Rusatze kit was installed. Can you imagine the nightmare of keeping track of your FW-190A8/R4//R6 around or having to order parts for your previously flown FW-190A8/R6 before it got a motor swap??? Baubeschreibung 284 simplifies all that just calling in an FW-190A9/R6.

FW-190A5 fuselage. Can you spot the difference? FW-190A8 Fuselage:

R4 designation does not exist because it denoted an FW190A re-engined with a BMW801S series engine. The decision was made and published in Technical Description Nr 284 to just call them FW-190A9's irregardless of who installed the BMW801S engine. Once again:

LOL You literally see those access panels on EVERY FW190A8 ever built. One is on the Left side above fuselage access door. It doubles as the installation point for the auxiliary fuel tank fill port or GM-1 fill port. It is the same thing. The other is the big round hole in the bottom of the FW-190A8 right under the tank installation. It is not any harder to run that hose from the tank than to the intake fittings than it is to run a wire to launch rockets thru the wing of your P51, P47, P38, F4U... You actually run fewer hoses and shorter distances than you do wiring up the rockets, LOL. In fact, there are already at pathway thru the bulkheads for it on the FW-190A8. I guess they never fired rockets out of US airplanes either because they were not "fitted" for rockets by your reasoning.

LOL It takes less time to fit the 85liter GM-1 tank than it does to equip a P47 with rockets. Either you are just flat out lying to try to win an internet discussion for some reason or not reading the full instructions. FW-190A8/R11's had production priority for the BMW801Q/TU series engines. Without that engine, it wasn't produced.

Since that is the reference material for the approval of GM-1 at 80gr/sec in the BMW801D2 engine it says EXACTLY what I have told you. And for the third time: LOL. Okay let's walk you through it using the specific instructions from Focke Wulf and BMW. 1. What is the only engine the FW-190A8/R11 came from the factory with? A. Chevy 350 V8 B. Lycoming O-360A1A C. BMW801Q (BMW801TU) *hint - its the same motor found on the NORMAL FIGHTER Variant that crashed in England in August 1944. You know the airplane that wasn't an R11... The FW-190A8/R11 operated by II/JG301 for example: https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html 2. True or False "The BMW801Q engine came equipped from the factory to use GM-1" A. True B. False It's an open book test so I will give you a hint: *GM-1 is mentioned right here in the Engine Installation manual...the document the guy picking up a wrench uses... How do we know this was ground reality? Well, we have an airplane with this exact engine equipped from the factory to use GM-1: The British conclude it was equipped to use it.

Change the channel, your brain is stuck on GM-1, LOL. It's not a mystery. The instructions are very clear. The equipment is very clear. It was approved for the 80gr/sec use in July 44. Definitely, every FW-190A8/R11 came equipped to use it. It's use in the BMW801D2 engine was approved but not recommended. The BMW801Q and BMW801S series came standard with it. Drawbacks: 1. It's heavy and unlike the normal 115 liter fuel tank, you are not using it up while you fly to the combat zone thereby decreasing your weight. Fuel is more useful. GM-1 gives you no viable performance boost unless you are operating in the Altitude band above 8km and there it gave the FW-190A8 a 58kph increase in speed at Climb and Combat Power. Below that, it is just extra weight. 2. It cannot be readied the night before or allowed to sit for long periods. It must be filled and used within a 6-8 hr time frame. It will leak out of the system. Therefore, your alert flights have to be filled just as they come on duty and the system pressure monitored. This was a huge problem for the British as their transit times to the combat zone were much longer. 3. It is extremely flammable and Liquid Nitrous requires special handling/equipment. The Germans used Liquid Oxygen daily which is even worse so unlike the Royal Airforce at least the Ground crews were already familiar with the procedures and equipment for handling such HAZMAT. The fill ports for the Liquid Nitrous were external and it could be done directly from the portable fill tank cart. You just plugged it in and open the valves to pressurize the system. Those valves must O2 clean and not come into contact with any Petroleum based products just like every Pilot O2 Oxygen system in existence no matter if is liquid or compressed. BTW. There are many more BMW801Q engines and BMW801S engines in existence today than there are BMW801D2's. The BMW801D2 is extremely rare to find and it took years of searching to find one that could be rebuilt for White 1. Guess what motor is Displayed at the BMW Museum: Notice the Rocker Box Housings modification to simplify maintenance and Exhaust Routing for Cylinders 9-10... BMW801D2 for comparison, Notice the Rocker Box Housing: Notice the exhaust routing on Cylinders 9-10: Here is the FW-190A8 that is on display getting ready for display. Notice what engine it has....

It's in March 44.

How do you miss the significance of a Normal Fighter Variant crashing in England in August of 1944 equipped with Erhohte Notleistung? It literally makes your argument if you know the technical history. How do you miss the significance of that airplane having a Q series engine and the much less common approved but not recommended might not have been used at all GM-1 to your whole argument that Erhohte Notleistung was much more common. It is a fact a EN equipped engine landed in England in 1944. It's a fact that EVERY engine meant for a fighter came from the FACTORY equipped with Erhohte Notleistung starting in July 1944. That aircraft is literally a Werknummer block from JULY for NORMAL FIGHTER Variant. It is definitive proof that program was ground reality. In terms of your game, I would bet it was much more common than a few 2nd TAF Spitfires using 100/150 grade fuel engaging German Fighters instead of chasing V1's over England. Erhohte Notleistung was approved more than six months earlier. The Operational Fighter Geschwaders were asking for it since the successful testing of C3-Einspritzung. They definitely noticed that the Ground Pounders got a big performance improvement. It had been anticipated for a year and half and before that testing for C3 Einspritzung for all altitudes for use in fighters had been successfully tested for operational use. Erhohte Notleistung literally grew out of that whole program when they realized the engine did not require all the extra knock limited performance. You are aware of massive improvements in C3 fuel knock limited protection? The RAE noticed it from just 13 samples puzzling over the improvement in Rich Mixture Performance. They also worried about the hydrogenation process Fisch Trop had developed that literally became by 1944 how 99% of all German Aviation fuel was produced. The RAE noted the fuel samples for C3 going as high as 140(+) Octane in 1941. The United States did their own testing and I am sure you know there are multiple methods of determining Octane levels and they don't correspond to the same values either. The United States Petroleum board was worried that C3 fuel was already 145 Octane in 1942.

This does not make any sense at all. You have a game with the most unrealistic match ups and mish-mash of types, most of them very late war. I fail to see the logic. GM-1 was approved. Certain engines came from the factory set up to use it and it was an option for the guy flying missions. It was not recommended for all the reason's discussed and I certainly do not advocate it was used very commonly at all. MW-50 was never used operationally except in some testing. It simply did not deliver as much performance gains as C-3 Einspritzung and Erhohte Notleistung especially when you realize it was possible to run C-3 Einspritzung at all altitudes. Erhohte Notleistung was essentially the exact same thing in the big picture without requiring new parts to be manufactured. In the case of GM-1, there is no "what if". Factually, the system was available, approved, and the equipment in place. When i was in the service, we got HK USP's issued. Nobody EVER used them. We called it the "Laura Croft" gun and they sat in the arms room collecting dust. That does not change the fact that if I wanted to take a huge, bulky, suppressed, .45 caliber pistol I most certainly had that option. If it is implemented in your game, GM-1 will probably reflect its use in reality. I wouldn't ask for it for sure. Tested. Degraded performance for very little gain in FTH and abandoned. And? You can pick apart in hindsight til the cows come home. All sides make mistakes as human beings are prone to do. You can "What if" forever without resolving a thing. Look at the Allied handling of Jet Engine Development or Compressible Aerodynamics. "What IF" Frogs had pockets? Would they carry pistols and shoot snakes? Yep they sure did come from the factory all set up to use the approved system. It is kind of like when the Military orders a Machine Gun. The Machine gun does not arrive from the factory with ammunition either or a pintle, tripod, and T&E. I guess that makes Machine Guns useless. Yes of course. I have dozens of pictures of FW-190's complying with "Focke Wulf Modification Nr 133" which is the Technical Order allowing the retrofit of Erhohte Notliestung to the FW-190's that did not come from the factory with it. Only those modified aircraft required the yellow disc and that was actually removed at the end of the periodic inspection cycle. It's almost exactly like the inspection program for War Emergency Power use that the USAAF had and most Airforces had similar required maintenance steps for such things. Those with the factory install were not marked externally as the whole aircraft had to go thru the acceptance process anyway. You can find more pictures of that yellow disc than you can P-51's in invasion stripes with tail radar or Bf-109K4's in Normandy, LOL.

Wow. I already told you once that R4 variant was scrapped. R4 denotes an FW-190A8 re-engined with a BMW801TS engine. That engine came with GM-1 fitted just like the BMW801TU/BMW801Q2. The decision was to delete the R4 designation and just label the airframe an FW-190A9. It most certainly does differentiate the difference between "provisions" and a "tank" by specifically talking about the lack of a tank. English, Native Speaker. Do you really think the RAE who had more experience with Nitrous Oxide than probably anyone else during the war would not look to see if there where feed lines and valves with jets installed? Obviously they looked at hard enough to find the data plate..... Total Strawman. Nobody ever said that is not lag time. You are focusing on GM-1 because it is the only power increase discussed in that even makes any remote sense for the translation of "Maybe Hope So Perhaps One Day it Might Happen". All three systems were approved months before that document was completed. The other two systems were complete and approved months before. One set up for GM-1 was approved as well with that programs testing ongoing for variations. You have to tune Nitrous Oxide changing both the fuel metering and the Oxide metering. It is all linked together and changing one, effects the other. You cannot seem to seperate or differentiate between 80gr/sec and 150gr/sec. You seem to think it is all the same thing just because it called GM-1. In July '44 Focke Wulf clarified that GM-1 at 80gr/sec was approved for use but not recommended. C-3 Einspitzung was approved BEFORE July 1943 when it appears in the Operating Instructions and Erhohte Notleistung for Fighters in December 1944 two months before the clarification document. The more complicated the upgrade, the more lag time required. Erhohte Notleistung was a hose, a T-fitting with a specially sized hole to induce a controlled leak, and a cable pull valve to activate the leak. Pretty sure the Germans were "Maybe Hope So Perhaps" capable of making some hose in a timely manner. It's not a report. It is the Engine Installation manual. Yes it is updated in preparation for 1.8 ata it replaces the previous manual from May 44. None of that is the point. It is a FACT that EVERY BMW801TU/BMW801Q engine came with GM-1. They all did. Without it....It's not a BMW801Q engine, it is a broken engine that is missing parts. The FW-190A8/R11 all came with BMW801Q engines. Every one of them. It was the ONLY variant that could not use a BMW801D2. Why? It had a lot of "Junk in Trunk" with the single axis autopilot for IFR operations. That equipment put the CG so far rearward it had to have the heavier installation of the BMW801Q engine. Even with that motor, it required Propeller weights to bring the CG back into normal range. The fact there is physical evidence of that engine being put into normal production FW-190A8's in England in August 1944 is very significant. The July 1944 instructions actually read that the BMW801Q series will replace the BMW801D2 in FW-190A's beginning in July 1944. WkNr 171747 was built at Focke Wulf Cottbus in July-August 1944. Every single FW-190A8/R11 and FW-190A9 of any designation was capable of using GM-1 if they wanted it. They came from the factory ready with all the provisions. https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html Brems, This is just speculation but from what I know on tuning Nitrous Oxide, it is jet up until you blow the motor for hot-rodders. That obviously does not apply for aircraft and its unusual to jet down from a higher injection rate that does not blow the motor. That is because cars are not dealing with Altitude. One of the Tactical drawbacks with the 150gr/sec was the FTH altitude. That altitude was set to combat very high altitudes of the B29 and because of the risk of intake icing in lower, warmer, moist air. It's engagement altitude was above most of the fighting as the B29 never materialized in the ETO. It does not do much good to have a great boost system that works at 30,000 feet if you are not fighting B29's/P-47's and all the fighting is taking place at 20,000 feet. That makes the most sense, IMHO as why they started working on the lower injection rate. Pretty sure the 80gr/sec system was designed to lower the FTH but like everybody that used Nitrous in aircraft, intake icing becomes a large issue. That is of course outside the normal issues with Nitrous Oxide of handling and leakage.

Designates the fitting of a BMW801S series engine. That designation was done away with as it was just decided to replate the aircraft as an FW-190A9. Yes, it could come with GM-1 but that has NOTHING to do with its use in the BMW801D2. The BMW801Q series would have GM-1 fittings and was approved to use it. May 1944:

Certainly not. IIRC the timeline for delivery from the factory fully equipped was July 1944. Did it take six months to produce a couple of hundred sets of tubing and a pull cable? Probably not. As for the GM-1 kits, those are much more complicated however they had far fewer to make. GM-1 is pretty complicated stuff to use. It pretty much requires filling the tank and in using it in a very short period of time. It does not sit and leaks out. You can see that being tested in several of the flight test report where they note the aircraft was allowed to sit untouched for the engineers allotted time to test the system loss. Is more than just a tank.

The the highlighted portion of the document is talking about GM-1 at 80gr/sec instead of 150gr/sec? Cutting your consumption rate in half would be worth it if the performance holds. You are confusing details with the big picture. GM-1 was not widespread in its use. It was approved and it was used. It was approved at the time the document briefly covering the increased performance available at that time was released. Rechiln is the RLM's approval authority for all technical aircraft changes. That is why the KTB entry is so important. It is the equivalent of the FAA's Master Airworthiness List: https://drs.faa.gov/browse/ADFRAWD/doctypeDetails

I have never seen that as a reason. I have always understood coming from The General Of Day Fighter for the Luftwaffe that the reason was the Luftwaffe effort was to counter each raid just before it hit the target with a maximum effort to just bring down bombers with orders to ignore allied fighters. That is what the excerpt stating the directives I posted earlier from POW transcripts. Just like Goering wanted the bombers to have a visual on the fighter escort in the Battle of Britain, Hitler wanted the German people to see the Luftwaffe defending their cities. That strategy was dictated from higher and one of the reason's Galland just went back to flying as his input had no effect anyway.

So, Physical Evidence from a crashed plane showing up in England in August of 1944 is dismissed. All these FW-190A8/R11's had GM-1 at 150gr/sec... https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html So is my wife and half my friends. They disagree and so does every translator available. It is not a cut and dry thing so quit trying to minimize the discussion.

In the publication I read I did not get impression Galland was not talking about trying to blanket England in German fighters. Instead he was advocating intercepting the escorts over the channel with the express goal of engaging escort fighters in order to force them to drop their extra fuel. It wasn't about intercepting bombers or fighters over England. It was about saving the SE fighters to engage Allied escorts forcing them to turn back due to lack of fuel instead of wasting them trying to concentrate on escorted bombers over Germany. Once that happened and the escort was stripped away, the heavy twin engine fighters such as the JU88's could them engage the bomber without interference. As for the entire Allied Air Fleet and the ADGB responding.... They had a very hard time with just 40-50 FW190's carrying a tiny bomb load. In fact, they were not effective at all in stopping the raids. You really think they would have been more effective trying to reach out across the channel AND maintain their Defense of Great Britain?

That does not make sense. All three systems discussed where already approved and operational. Of the three, only GM-1 was considered required special handling, equipment, and training due to the liquid nitrous and icing concerns even though it was approved for use. C3-Einsptrizung was approved in July 1943 and it's instructions are found in the POH. In August 1943, investigation began into using it at all altitudes. That investigation was completed in September 1943. By that time, teardown, testing and examination of the engines from SS+GL, BC+XO, and the other aircraft that participated in the first C3 Einspritzung testing was complete so work began on examining just a straight manifold pressure increase instead of the more resource intensive C3 Einspritzung. That investigation was complete and approved on 20 December 1943. The investigations are done, complete, and approved in all three systems discussed. In fact, the February Travel Log publishes the exact same information a month earlier. In context, it makes NO SENSE. Yep, GM-1 was problematic. It was approved nonetheless and its published manual did not appear for a month after this document briefly covering the boost systems of the FW-190. The system is included in the FW-190A5 Weight and Balance sheets: As stated, dealing with liquid nitrous required special equipment and training on the part of the ground crew and pilots. AFAIK, GM-1 was only used by those units receiving the R11 All Weather variant. Those units required additional training in Instrument Flying as well. Even that was not as problematic as one might think as the Luftwaffe routinely used LOX and was already familiar with the HAZMAT/Handling concerns of Liquid Gas. It also increased the risk of intake icing so pilots had to be aware of the conditions it was used as well as recognize the symptoms of intake icing. That being said...all airbreathing airplane engines are subject to intake icing even today. I turn the Engine Anti-Ice on every flight when conditions warrant. Explain the fact C3 Einsptirzung was published in the FW-190A5 Flugzueg Handbuch almost a year earlier. Explain the fact Erhorte Notleistung was approved 3 months beforehand and GM-1 Given the fact all three systems are tested and approved translating this as some pie in the sky "we are checking into it" makes little sense at all. C3 Einspritzung - Approved in June 1943. GM-1 - Approved in December 1943 for higher injection rate of 150gr/sec and approved/used at 85gr/sec in mid-1943. Erhorte Notleistung - Approved for use in December 1943.