GGTharos Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 No, it doesn't. The F-15 isn't capable of keeping up with a flanker in a straight-up turning fight, and there's almost no way to get a flanker out of your TC as long as the flanker pilot has a reasonable clue with respect to conducting BFM. Right now the flanker behaves better throughout the entire envelope compared to the eagle. That's without even going into ridiculous applications of the magic S-key. The F-15 has the advantage in most of WVR right now thanks to the differing FM developers, one being an easier FM made by the devs of F-86 and MiG-15 whilst the other is by the same dev that made the P-51 and A-10C. Just flying those aircraft gives you an impression of how well configured the A-10C and P-51 FM is. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Frostie Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 No, it doesn't. The F-15 isn't capable of keeping up with a flanker in a straight-up turning fight, and there's almost no way to get a flanker out of your TC as long as the flanker pilot has a reasonable clue with respect to conducting BFM. Right now the flanker behaves better throughout the entire envelope compared to the eagle. That's without even going into ridiculous applications of the magic S-key.http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2407634&postcount=20 So, both modules (Su-27 and F-15C) are beta. :) F-15C now have bug with turn-rate. All speeds < 1M F-15C have 15% better turn-rate than Su-27. I hope next patches DCS and modules will correct that problem. :) This is more of a power bug and it will be fixed. F-15 was accidentally tuned with 15C weather performance for 20C weather, IIRC. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted September 21, 2015 Author Posted September 21, 2015 Sorry but no. Way outdated, assuming it even mattered back then. I can point the nose anywhere I want with a flanker in such a way that anyone who wants to actually make it a fight, has to extend so far out as to be subject to missile employment. You're not going to out-turn a flanker with an eagle. If it truly was ever possible back in the day, it's really not at this point. The only time I 'out-turn' a flanker is because the other guy does something silly in front of me, not because the eagle can out-rate it. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2407634&postcount=20 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
*Rage* Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Sorry but no. Way outdated, assuming it even mattered back then. I can point the nose anywhere I want with a flanker in such a way that anyone who wants to actually make it a fight, has to extend so far out as to be subject to missile employment. You're not going to out-turn a flanker with an eagle. If it truly was ever possible back in the day, it's really not at this point. The only time I 'out-turn' a flanker is because the other guy does something silly in front of me, not because the eagle can out-rate it. Outdated since when? Has the Eagle received an FM update since then? Because you can out turn the Flanker right now in an Eagle at almost all dogfight speeds last time I checked. Serious question since I've not been flying for a few weeks due to work commitments but im not aware of any relevant updates. Im not sure what it is, whether its excess power, low drag or greater turn rate or whatever, but there is no doubt about it from what I've seen recently. Edited September 21, 2015 by ///Rage [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22
=4c=Nikola Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Sorry but no. Way outdated, assuming it even mattered back then. I can point the nose anywhere I want with a flanker in such a way that anyone who wants to actually make it a fight, has to extend so far out as to be subject to missile employment. You're not going to out-turn a flanker with an eagle. If it truly was ever possible back in the day, it's really not at this point. The only time I 'out-turn' a flanker is because the other guy does something silly in front of me, not because the eagle can out-rate it. F-15 out-turns Su-27 in the newest DCS we have. Go at GnR and try it. Not that Su-27 cannot win, but in pure turn flight it has no chance. Edited September 21, 2015 by =4c=Nikola Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
wilky510 Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Su-27 Flight Performance The F-15 has the advantage in most of WVR right now thanks to the differing FM developers, one being an easier FM made by the devs of F-86 and MiG-15 whilst the other is by the same dev that made the P-51 and A-10C. Just flying those aircraft gives you an impression of how well configured the A-10C and P-51 FM is. I am sure when the F-15 FM update hits the Su-27 will easily best the F-15 up close, though; I can see where the higher thrust to weight on the F-15 will still cause problems. You guys have the better missile in WVR IMO, i wasn't strictly talking about performance, the AIM-9M is good, but the R-73 is better. R-73 might eat flares though, which could be brought into the discussion. I personally think all IR missiles are too easy to spoof.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 So I went and tested the Flanker and the Eagle at equivalent fuel loads in terms of time, meaning that at Full AB, both planes would run out of fuel at about the same time. Eagle was a full fuel, Flanker at 15,700lbs. The Flanker had a turn rate at SL, of 15.5 degrees per second. The Eagle had a turn rate of 14.5 degrees per second. I got the same results every time, doing about 10 circles each, AFTER the aircraft had already stabilized at sustained speed etc. So if you got out turned by a Eagle in a Flanker, it was probably because: A: He was much lighter loaded, either from having less fuel, less missiles, or both. B: The fight was not purely the horizontal C: The Eagle had a E advantage, allowing for a higher initial turn rate D: You dont know what you are doing, and he just flew better than you. E: All of the above. In short, there are too many factors in a server battle to accurately guess whose plane out turned who. It is the same reason we dont go off encounter reports from wars to determine whose plane turned better, except in extreme cases.
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 ^That's ridiculously high fuel load for both aircraft. I don't even take off with that amount of fuel in Su-27. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
*Rage* Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 So, both modules (Su-27 and F-15C) are beta. F-15C now have bug with turn-rate. All speeds < 1M F-15C have 15% better turn-rate than Su-27. I hope next patches DCS and modules will correct that problem. This is more of a power bug and it will be fixed. F-15 was accidentally tuned with 15C weather performance for 20C weather, IIRC. That is how it should be. Don't get into a turning fight with a flanker at low altitudes. Sorry but no. Way outdated, assuming it even mattered back then. I can point the nose anywhere I want with a flanker in such a way that anyone who wants to actually make it a fight, has to extend so far out as to be subject to missile employment. You're not going to out-turn a flanker with an eagle. If it truly was ever possible back in the day, it's really not at this point. The only time I 'out-turn' a flanker is because the other guy does something silly in front of me, not because the eagle can out-rate it. Well GG? You appear to be contradicting yourself as no relevant update has been released. Unless you mean in the testers version which may have also corrected the TRO. In which case I would understand. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 ^That's ridiculously high fuel load for both aircraft. I don't even take off with that amount of fuel in Su-27. Sure, but thats not the point. If you keep the fuel load proportional, the turn difference will be the same. Moving on, I also tested climbing ability. Note, the following numbers are not necessarily max climb rate per altitude, but are the climb rate achieved accelerating from 135 knots at 1000ft. This test was conducted by using the same fuel loads in the last test. I started each plane at 135knots, 1000ft, and then pitched up to 30 degrees and held it exactly there. I then recorded the ROC as the aircraft passed each altitude. Rounded to nearest 500. 10000ft F15: 20,000ft/min Su27: 18500ft/min 20,000ft 15: 25,000ft/min Su-27: 20,000ft/min 30,000ft 15: 25,000ft/min Su-27: 16,000ft/min 40,000ft 15: 20,000ft/min Su-27: Did not finish climb. Stopped at 38k.
blkspade Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 1. Lets itroduce some lag protection to prevent loosing a lock. While there may be some issues with the netcode, and the server randomly tanking, there isn't going to be such a thing as "lag protection". Its just not the way the internet (and gaming over the internet) works. Server-side CPU utilization induced lag can (in theory) be fixed, but client-side latency or in transit packet loss, will always be a thing. http://104thphoenix.com/
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 So I went and tested the Flanker and the Eagle at equivalent fuel loads in terms of time, meaning that at Full AB, both planes would run out of fuel at about the same time. Eagle was a full fuel, Flanker at 15,700lbs. The Flanker had a turn rate at SL, of 15.5 degrees per second. The Eagle had a turn rate of 14.5 degrees per second. I got the same results every time, doing about 10 circles each, AFTER the aircraft had already stabilized at sustained speed etc. I'm sorry it's offtopic, maybe admin can separate threads? Anyway, I don't know how you get 14.5 */s sustained... With your settings I can do above 16 easily. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 I'm sorry it's offtopic, maybe admin can separate threads? Anyway, I don't know how you get 14.5 */s sustained... With your settings I can do above 16 easily. Then you are doing it wrong. You are either not measuring accurately, losing altitude in your turn, or not stabilizing the aircraft by measuring the turn rate before the plane as bled off excess E and is sustain level, turning flight. 14.5 degrees per second is accurate for 100% fuel.
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Then you are doing it wrong. You are either not measuring accurately, losing altitude in your turn, or not stabilizing the aircraft by measuring the turn rate before the plane as bled off excess E and is sustain level, turning flight. 14.5 degrees per second is accurate for 100% fuel. I'm not an idiot. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 I'm not an idiot. Didnt say you were. But if your getting 16 degrees per second, you are doing something wrong. How are you measuring this? Are you using tacview?
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Didnt say you were. But if your getting 16 degrees per second, you are doing something wrong. How are you measuring this? Are you using tacview? Yes, I use tacview, and looking graphs for total energy, tas, aoa, radius, turn rate... Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Yes, I use tacview, and looking graphs for total energy, tas, aoa, radius, turn rate... If you are doing it right, 100% fuel etc. You should be at about 190knots IAS. If that is not the case, you are not in a sustained turn at max AoA.
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 If you are doing it right, 100% fuel etc. You should be at about 190knots IAS. If that is not the case, you are not in a sustained turn at max AoA. Ok, that's more parameters you didn't mention before. Why would anyone fly 190kt ias in dogfight? Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Ok, that's more parameters you didn't mention before. Why would anyone fly 190kt ias in dogfight? Were not testing a dogfight. Why would you fly at 100% fuel? Were testing relative performance. There is no correct speed for a dogfight. Sometimes you need to be at corner to maximize rate. Other times you need to max radius out by being below corner. Or maybe you want to be above corner for certain reasons. The speed or tactics are relative to the fight, and the bandit. So you cannot simply state: why would anyone fly at that speed, since that is relative. Both of my tests were conducted at SL max AoA sustainable to get best turn rate for that. It should be a good test of the relative turn performance of the planes. If you were at the corner speed for both, the flanker should still win. Does anyone know the corner for the flanker at a given weight? IIRC the corner for the Eagle is about 410knots, but I have no idea as to the weight. If anything Nikola, this should drive home my other point. That people in the 104th Sever claiming they got out-turned by a eagle is a highly relative question. Ive been doing sims for about 15 years, and it no uncommon even for people to claim they got out turned when they weren't even in a turning fight in the first place.
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Were not testing a dogfight. Why would you fly at 100% fuel? Were testing relative performance. There is no correct speed for a dogfight. Sometimes you need to be at corner to maximize rate. Other times you need to max radius out by being below corner. Or maybe you want to be above corner for certain reasons. The speed or tactics are relative to the fight, and the bandit. So you cannot simply state: why would anyone fly at that speed, since that is relative. Both of my tests were conducted at SL max AoA sustainable to get best turn rate for that. It should be a good test of the relative turn performance of the planes. If you were at the corner speed for both, the flanker should still win. Does anyone know the corner for the flanker at a given weight? IIRC the corner for the Eagle is about 410knots, but I have no idea as to the weight. If anything Nikola, this should drive home my other point. That people in the 104th Sever claiming they got out-turned by a eagle is a highly relative question. Ive been doing sims for about 15 years, and it no uncommon even for people to claim they got out turned when they weren't even in a turning fight in the first place. You cannot compare two aircraft like that. Performance will not stay proportional through the rest of envelope. I'm not even sure how you fly 190kts at max AoA, roughly calculated, that would be almost at, if not over, accelerated stall speed for that load factor. Btw, nothing to do with 104th server, that's entirely different matter. I'm speaking about strictly controlled and "sterile" conditions. As I said, F-15 out turns Su-27 given that both pilots flying the best turns. Edited September 22, 2015 by =4c=Nikola Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 You cannot compare two aircraft like that. Performance will not stay proportional through the rest of envelope. I'm not even sure how you fly 190kts at max AoA, roughly calculated, that would be almost at, if not over, accelerated stall speed for that load factor. Btw, nothing to do with 104th server, that's entirely different matter. I'm speaking about strictly controlled and "sterile" conditions. As I said, F-15 out turns Su-27 given that both pilots flying the best turns. Do you even know what the corner for the flanker is for all weights? Because that would really be something. If would find that hard to believe. No, the performance over the envelope would not be the same, but if would only differ at the extremes, such as inside of, or over the trans sonic and super sonic regimes. But how about we just put this to the test then? Ill set up a server, ill fly the flanker, you can can fly the eagle and we see who out turns whom.
=4c=Nikola Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Do you even know what the corner for the flanker is for all weights? Because that would really be something. If would find that hard to believe. No, the performance over the envelope would not be the same, but if would only differ at the extremes, such as inside of, or over the trans sonic and super sonic regimes. But how about we just put this to the test then? Ill set up a server, ill fly the flanker, you can can fly the eagle and we see who out turns whom. I'm not sure about Su-27 speeds at all. We can test it as long as I do not fly the flanker as data would be useless. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 I'm not sure about Su-27 speeds at all. We can test it as long as I do not fly the flanker as data would be useless. PMing you TS and server info
Frostie Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 190 kts? You're not testing ww2 prop planes. Due to its high AoA I would expect a much greater advantage for the Flanker at such speed. A more realistic speed for comparison of optimal turn rates would be 350-450. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
ArkRoyal Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 190 kts? You're not testing ww2 prop planes. Due to its high AoA I would expect a much greater advantage for the Flanker at such speed. A more realistic speed for comparison of optimal turn rates would be 350-450. So we did several dogfights at a range of different speeds. And there is definitely something wrong with one off these planes FM's, or both. Imagine that...a AFM that is worse than a SFM....su-27, F-15, all the missiles, all the ww2 birds..........:music_whistling: Anyhow, this is what we got. Right around 720kph IAS was the best I could sustain in a Flanker without going into GLOC. At that speed, and with the Eagle at 350knots IAS, we were equal. We went round and round and round without gaining any purchase. If I tried to turn faster than that, I pull too much G. If I went slower, the Eagle out turned me. If we both went slower, the Flanker won. But, why would the eagle choose to do that? He wouldnt. So bottom line, at typical corning speeds, they are tit-for-tat. And that is assuming he was at best speed for a Eagle at that weight. He very well could have been turning worse than optimal, and I dont see how I could have made my turn any better. So GGtharos, what gives?
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