Radar trouble

[Hydrox]

Then I must have superb radar, heck I can smell the plane. ^^ But fine, if it is the reason I live with that, just feel pity for russian pilots lol

 

I think that answer is the most logical one, since the radar beam isn't very good below nose, well non-existant.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Hydrox

[Ironhand]

A-10s should be around 6700m MSL - <1500 mountains and F-16 headed my way, I'd say 6000+. hard to say, can't see the my exact aoa to calculate the F16s alt.

Sorry, Hydrox, but that F-16 in the 2nd image is a lot closer to 2000m than 6000m judging from the HDD symbology. It looks like he might be gaining altitude in the subsequent images but, I'd bet, he's remaining below your scan elevation.

[holimoli]

I think that answer is the most logical one, since the radar beam isn't very good below nose, well non-existant.

 

wrong. :) For example at 30km it scans down ~2000m. So if you are flying at 7000m you will pick up everything from 5000-7000m. Thats why I guess the F16 is below 5300m...otherwise you should see it..Or your PRF setting is wrong for the contact's aspect.

 

In the SU27 you have to manipulate your radar constantly. Fyling with just one setting is not gonna work. You have to "develop" a pattern on how you manipulate the radar. For example: up,up,up - left - down,down,down - right - up ,up ,up - right down, down,down etc... pattern depends on your altitude, expected range settings ... etc...

[Frostie]

This is pretty much how I see it. A-10s... hmmm, but F-16 is stealth?

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say with this picture, your PRF is set at MED you won't see much anything past 30km in that PRF.

 

 

Also looking at your first pictures by any chance are all the contacts cold?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Frostie

[flupke]

Hi Hydrox,

 

Begin again a mission of the same type, and post a track of it. It would be easy then for us to get what is going wrong, and give help ;)

 

Flupke

[Hydrox]

This should give you idea of targets alt. Also if you wanna take another look at the pictures, F-16 is scanned with different PRFs with lower altitude at aoa 20, target in the middle of HUD. If the radar is that bad that it can't lock a target in front of the planes nose, so be it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Hydrox

[Ironhand]

This should give you idea of targets alt. Also if you wanna take another look at the pictures, F-16 is scanned with different PRFs with lower altitude at aoa 20, target in the middle of HUD. If the radar is that bad that it can't lock a target in front of the planes nose, so be it.

AoA? Not sure what you're referring to. The graphic in this post is the VVI, not the AoA. It's telling you how many meters per second your dropping. And it would be pitch, not AoA that you'd be dealing with, if at all. When you are scanning straight ahead, the beam is more or less centered on your altitude. If you then point your nose down, unless you peg the HUD view tick marks to the top of the radar elevation scale, you are still scanning where you were scanning. Pointing your nose down toward the target doesn't change anything. Like I said, the HDD view of the target in your 2nd image of the series shows the target at around 2000 meters.

[Hydrox]

Ok, I see that VVI doesn't tell really aoa then, haven't studied these just thought. Anyway when pointing nose to target, what difference does it make what targets altitude is? isn't radar following the nose of the plane unless manipulated otherwise?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Hydrox

[Ironhand]

...isn't radar following the nose of the plane unless manipulated otherwise?

NNOOOOO!!!!!! :)

 

That's what I've been trying to tell you. Pointing your nose down doesn't cause it to point where your nose is pointing. BVR isn't like the WVR modes. In BVR mode, the radar is stabilized in reference to the horizon, not your nose.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Ironhand

[Hydrox]

So if I put radar on, and then make 90 degree turn left, radar points to my right at 90 degrees? Or is it just elevation? This gets confusing.

 

 

Edit: Ok, if you would have said this "...radar is stabilized in reference to the horizon, not your nose." earlier, this thread would be a lot shorter.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Hydrox

[cardboard_man]

If you read my first post i say

e.g. if you set to 25.0 and 3 it will center the scan cone and hold it on the point 25km ahead of you and 3000m up

But yes maybe i said that in a round about way so i understand if you did not get what i meant.

 

Holimoli i thought he was saying the radar cone was 60 degrees in height. Also from the manual

 

 

• The expected (manual) range to target (often derived from AWACS and GCI data), as set by [RCtrl-+] and [RCtrl--] keys and is indicated at the bottom of the HUD under the azimuth coverage bar. The elevation coverage of the radar scan pattern is calculated from this parameter.
  

 

• The expected relative altitude of the target with respect to your aircraft, as set by the [RShift-;] and [RShift-.] keys is indicated on the right side of the HUD, next the elevation coverage bar. This parameter is also used to calculate the scan pattern elevation coverage.
  

I take this to mean depending on range and relative altitude the radar adjusts the number of bars and or the beam width used in the elevation scan pattern to optimism detection capabilities depending on relative altitude and range of the target.

 

At close range you will be getting a stronger return signal than you would at long range so you can use a wider elevation scan pattern. Whereas at long range you may need a more focused pattern to get a detectable or more accurate signal return. I imagine there is similar functions based on whether it is a look down or look up situation.

 

But anyway as i said it might be simplified in the sim.

[Ironhand]

So if I put radar on, and then make 90 degree turn left, radar points to my right at 90 degrees? Or is it just elevation? This gets confusing.

Just elevation in BVR SCAN mode.

 

Edit: Ok, if you would have said this "...radar is stabilized in reference to the horizon, not your nose." earlier, this thread would be a lot shorter.

:) Yes, sometimes it takes me awhile to find the simple way of explaining things.

[Weta43]

Yes, sometimes it takes me awhile to find the simple way of explaining things.

...

Since 1634, the process of beautification has been regulated by Rome and has commonly become a step toward becoming canonized as a saint.

[Hydrox]

Well, nice to be a part of great community where things get sorted.

[Ironhand]

Well, nice to be a part of great community where things get sorted.

 

That it is.

 

So I'm still curious as to why the A-10/A-10s weren't showing up at all, even on data link. Any chance of posting the mission?

Edited March 8, 2016 by Ironhand

[Hydrox]

Sure here it is.

[holimoli]

Holimoli i thought he was saying the radar cone was 60 degrees in height. Also from the manual

 

 

Oh..yeah I misunderstood this. I'm sorry! :)

 

Yes, with the expected range and elevation you can point your antenna directly on a target if you have awacs/GCI available. But most of the time in MP session you won't have it...Here is another explanation for it:

 

The radar beam itself does not change in the amount it scans. All your expected range and elevation setting does is to tilt the radar beam in the vertical direction.

Every change in elevation will raise or lower your radar beam for a certain amount (degrees).

How much your radar beam is tilted per elevation can be adjusted with the expected range.

For example: With the default setting of 10km you will tilt your radar beam for ~5.6° per elevation change.

With a lower expected range setting you will tilt your radar more per elevation. For example: Expected range set to 8km will tilt your radar beam for ~7° per elevation change...and so on...

[Ironhand]

Sure here it is.

 

Thanks. After taking a quick look at the mission construction, now I understand why nothing was showing up on data link from the AWACs. It's too far away and the bogies were crossing. Still not sure why you weren't seeing those A-10's though. You should have been able to spot them at some point, unless the timing was just right for them to be in the notch at medium range and, then, happened to be under your radar after that. I'll have to fly the mission sometime when there's more time.

[cardboard_man]

I am talking about The radar scan pattern not the whole scan zone. the bold text in my previous post as i see it is referring to the

elevation coverage of the radar scan pattern

This image shows how a radar scans inside the scan zone which is what i am talking about.

 

That is how you can change the elevation coverage of the scan pattern you use less or more bars and with some radars at-least you can change the beam width as well. As you can see the less bars you use the more concentrated/ focused the radar is. It will get a picture faster but of a smaller area of the sky and potentially have better detection capability.

 

Again this is what i was mainly pointing to and i cant see meaning something else as they are being quite specific.

The elevation coverage of the radar scan pattern is calculated from this parameter.

But yes in the sim it might be simplified to a 4 bar scan at all times that is 10 degrees in elevation coverage. Or at-least that's what people used to think and i don't know if the way the radar worked ever got updated. Edited March 9, 2016 by cardboard_man

[risse]

I'm also having radar trouble in Fortress Mozdok mission 2. Or I'm just no getting something. :noexpression:

 

At some point I start getting contacts on my HDD (3 total). I assume they come via datalink from AWACS (open ended triangle). But despite heading straight to them, I can't get a radar lock until the range is below 20 km and then they start jamming me. After that at about 10 kilometers I can get a few pot shots at them and then they blow me out of the sky.

 

I have tried altering the radar elevation angle and using HI PRF mode (I assume it's better for targets coming at you), but still no luck. AWACS tells that at least one fo them is roughly at the same altitude.

 

E: Downloaded Tacview and somehow I got the scale wrong, it was much greater than 20 km. :music_whistling:

 

HDD scale works like scale in maps, the line under the number represents 20 km when display is set to 20?

Edited March 14, 2016 by risse

[Weta43]

I am talking about The radar scan pattern not the whole scan zone. the bold text in my previous post as i see it is referring to the This image shows how a radar scans inside the scan zone which is what i am talking about.

 

That is how you can change the elevation coverage of the scan pattern you use less or more bars and with some radars at-least you can change the beam width as well. As you can see the less bars you use the more concentrated/ focused the radar is. It will get a picture faster but of a smaller area of the sky and potentially have better detection capability.

 

Again this is what i was mainly pointing to and i cant see meaning something else as they are being quite specific. But yes in the sim it might be simplified to a 4 bar scan at all times that is 10 degrees in elevation coverage. Or at-least that's what people used to think and i don't know if the way the radar worked ever got updated.

 

The processor in the N001 is essentially the same as that in the N019 from the MiG-29

There is no provision in that radar for the pilot to change the number of bars in the scan pattern, or the width of the scan, beyond changing radar modes :

When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40° in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30° at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20° above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target.

 

When the system is not under direct GCI control via datalink, a 4 bar raster scan mode is used to acquire a target manually. This mode scans a constant 50° in azimuth, with the pilot controlling the direction of the scan. It is expected that the rough direction to the target will be given by ground control via voice commands.

[DarkFire]

HDD scale works like scale in maps, the line under the number represents 20 km when display is set to 20?

 

Yes it does. 20Km isn't the size of the display, 20Km = the size of the small line above the figures 20. Exactly like the scale on a map.

 

As far as detection range goes, with correct PRF setting you should expect to get a primary skin paint on a large fighter size target (for example an F-15) out beyond 60 Km. A small fighter like an F-5 or F-16 at maybe 40-50 Km and anything very large (AWACS, B-52, IL-76 etc) will be radar-visible well past 100 Km.

Edited March 15, 2016 by DarkFire

[cardboard_man]

OK well i guess i just misinterpreted what the manual was referring to. But it seems a bit strange to me that it would say it like that if it does not actually affect anything in that way.

[risse]

Played around in mission editor and put up a mission where (unarmed) planes are heading directly at me at different altitudes. Helped a lot in illustrating radar usage. Found out just how narrow the radar cone can be at ranges less than 50 km. :thumbup:

 

I'm going to expand this mission with planes heading in different directions and see how that goes. :joystick:

[holimoli]

I'm going to expand this mission with planes heading in different directions and see how that goes. :joystick:

 

this might help you...this is how your radar looks with default settings (expected range 10km, 0 elevation)

Edited March 15, 2016 by holimoli