F15-C Help with HOJ and Maddog.

[blkspade]

Nah, rmax of still about 14nmi against a defending target.

 

You mean RTR? Launching at ~Mach 1.5 goes a long way, if they're above 15k'. Most won't be defending until that pitbull notification.

[blkspade]

They can be if you launch with the radar off. What you need to do is enter uncaged mode (F6 on my keyboard), then switch from AIM-9 to AIM-120. Point your nose at where you think the bandits are (the targeting circle on your HUD) and fire away. The missile will be active from the get go, and lock on the first thing it sees. People say it will lock on the largest return it gets from its on board radar. So you have no way to know what it will hit or of it does at all. It may go after the closest thing, the plane with largest RCS..... It's a bit of a gamble, but it's useful when you don't have time to wait for a lock (but you have some idea where they are) or when you sneak on the enemy. Just make sure there aren't any friendlies around. :thumbup:

 

Any any range you'd hope a visual launch to be successful, vertical scan (or even Bore) is a better option to at least try and confirm where its going to go.

[IASGATG]

You mean RTR? Launching at ~Mach 1.5 goes a long way, if they're above 15k'. Most won't be defending until that pitbull notification.

 

Nah, not even Rtr. If we're up high like that and I see you, I'm starting gentle (4g?) s-turns from about 15nmi. This alone will stop your slammer from getting above M4, despite the high speed launch and altitude. Then after 8s (burn out), even at that altitude, she'll drop down to M2 in about 15 seconds. At this point I get the M warning and I know your missile is about 6nmi way at which point I can start to crank and defeat it.

 

Two things are in play that stop long range shots from any altitude and speed against any pilot worth his salt.

 

1) We all know the drag model is busted, so the missile even in best case launches has less than 40s of useful energy in a ballistic flight.

 

2) We all know the guidance model is busted, so this means that small s turns will force the missile to maintain g loading which will wreck its energy state. Holding lead against a 4g target is about 12g worth of pull. The missile wont keep pulling, but will make snaps back and forth.

 

Don't get me wrong, if you fire it against somebody who isn't paying attention, and doesn't know what they're doing, then sure, you can get 20+ mile kill shots. However, this does require you and the bandit to both be high, both be fast, both be flying towards each other, and for the bandit to not turn at all until the missile goes active, and even then doesn't know how to properly defend.

 

I mean look at 104th Maverick's stuff, he beautiful demonstrates how to game the sim. You wait until the missile is about 3-4 miles away, then begin a 10+g barrel roll. The missile is instantly defeated as it's constantly pulling 30-40g to try and stay with the fighter's nose.

[blkspade]

Nah, not even Rtr. If we're up high like that and I see you, I'm starting gentle (4g?) s-turns from about 15nmi. This alone will stop your slammer from getting above M4, despite the high speed launch and altitude. Then after 8s (burn out), even at that altitude, she'll drop down to M2 in about 15 seconds. At this point I get the M warning and I know your missile is about 6nmi way at which point I can start to crank and defeat it.

 

Two things are in play that stop long range shots from any altitude and speed against any pilot worth his salt.

 

1) We all know the drag model is busted, so the missile even in best case launches has less than 40s of useful energy in a ballistic flight.

 

2) We all know the guidance model is busted, so this means that small s turns will force the missile to maintain g loading which will wreck its energy state. Holding lead against a 4g target is about 12g worth of pull. The missile wont keep pulling, but will make snaps back and forth.

 

Don't get me wrong, if you fire it against somebody who isn't paying attention, and doesn't know what they're doing, then sure, you can get 20+ mile kill shots. However, this does require you and the bandit to both be high, both be fast, both be flying towards each other, and for the bandit to not turn at all until the missile goes active, and even then doesn't know how to properly defend.

 

I mean look at 104th Maverick's stuff, he beautiful demonstrates how to game the sim. You wait until the missile is about 3-4 miles away, then begin a 10+g barrel roll. The missile is instantly defeated as it's constantly pulling 30-40g to try and stay with the fighter's nose.

 

Yeah for those with decent enough SA (or at least AWACS)to catch me barreling down on them with any confidence that I have them sorted then yeah its easily escapable with preemptive maneuvering. I won't be noticed for sure until burn through, and tews will tell me if the bandit(s) I'm looking are looking at me. Its the ones that aren't that are most likely to die. Few of us in the 104th regularly rely on the gamey methods of missile evasion, Mav included.

[OnlyforDCS]

I mean look at 104th Maverick's stuff, he beautiful demonstrates how to game the sim. You wait until the missile is about 3-4 miles away, then begin a 10+g barrel roll. The missile is instantly defeated as it's constantly pulling 30-40g to try and stay with the fighter's nose.

 

This is the most disappointing part of the missile simulation in DCS. (Well that, and the messed up drag coefficients)

 

The missile's 'sensors' in DCS magically track the target in real time, and correct for every single twitch of the nose. The missile should be interpolating the bandit's trajectory based on it's previous trajectory, not on what it's doing as it's doing it in real time.

 

I assume there is no easy fix for this, I can't see how this hasn't been fixed otherwise. I would implement a time delay to course changes for the missile, or rather allow it to see the bandit's course changes in rather large discreete increments. This could then be narrowed down as the missile approaches the target.

[IASGATG]

It's because the guidance logic comes from the days when missiles didn't lose energy through induced drag, only parasitic. So it didn't matter if the bandit pulled because the missile can pull g and the pull doesn't give that much of a drag increase. Now since it does, the simple guidance logic is lacking.

[GGTharos]

The missile's 'sensors' in DCS magically track the target in real time, and correct for every single twitch of the nose. The missile should be interpolating the bandit's trajectory based on it's previous trajectory, not on what it's doing as it's doing it in real time.

 

That's a pretty huge assumption.

 

I assume there is no easy fix for this, I can't see how this hasn't been fixed otherwise. I would implement a time delay to course changes for the missile, or rather allow it to see the bandit's course changes in rather large discreete increments. This could then be narrowed down as the missile approaches the target.

 

How does a missile with no concept of distance do this? Or are we talking BVR only?

Edited April 19, 2017 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

Actually barrel-rolling evations were a 'thing' even with that FM. The missiles had to gain maneuverability to deal with such things at short range, never mind long range effects.

 

I suspect a revamp of fuzing would make these head-on barrel rolling 'evasions' suicidal.

 

It's because the guidance logic comes from the days when missiles didn't lose energy through induced drag, only parasitic. So it didn't matter if the bandit pulled because the missile can pull g and the pull doesn't give that much of a drag increase. Now since it does, the simple guidance logic is lacking.