How do you survive a dogfight in the Mig-21

[kelpie]

I think that mig21 engine is under-powered in DCS. I don't sense a difference between 1st and 2nd afterburner stages, second gives 9T of thrust for few minutes but seems like not simulated in DCS jet. Small plane as mig21 should accelerate very fast under 2nd stage but it looks like F5 can catch up too easily. Coincidence or RL fact? Not talking about dogfight position awareness and tactics but pure performance of machines.

 

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I never even notice when I'm on second stage afterburner unless I'm in F2 view and see it for myself. :P I also have to have my nose pointed down in order to out run an F-5 so I think it's underpowered too. But there are still a lot of bugs with the Mig-21 right now. :smilewink:

 

I hope those bugs get worked out after Magnitude is done with their current project. :D The Mig is too good to be left in a buggy state. :smilewink:

[Verde]

Vuys you gotta play more multiplayer! 1st and 2nd stage is like night and day when you are on flaps turning with f-5. Basicly if you are on emergency afterburner you can turn so hard un limit of stalling that you outmanouver the f-5 which bleeds speed off straightens out and and hou got him;) I really makes difference, in fuel consumption as well;) No russian emergency afterburner will make you superfas as MW 50. It just gives additional power for my taste it is spot on and as i said in. Ritical situations it is whats needed;)

[Verde]

As well as mig-21 is much more faster than f-5 usually there is no problem to leave the fight if judged properly and done when you have still have speed. Dont fly mig as f5 than it will shine;) I wrote a big chunk in old acg server topic on ta tactics and how its done, lookup some older posts or click my previosones somewhere it should be. Hit and run, preserve fuel, think ahead use your plane advantages and dont uze disedvatages;) I am on the phone now but when i am gonna get pc i will maybe copy my posts here for those who lazy enough;)

Edited September 2, 2017 by Verde

[kelpie]

Vuys you gotta play more multiplayer! 1st and 2nd stage is like night and day when you are on flaps turning with f-5. Basicly if you are on emergency afterburner you can turn so hard un limit of stalling that you outmanouver the f-5 which bleeds speed off straightens out and and hou got him;) I really makes difference, in fuel consumption as well;) No russian emergency afterburner will make you superfas as MW 50. It just gives additional power for my taste it is spot on and as i said in. Ritical situations it is whats needed;)

 

As well as mig-21 is much more faster than f-5 usually there is no problem to leave the fight if judged properly and done when you have still have speed. Dont fly mig as f5 than it will shine;) I wrote a big chunk in old acg server topic on ta tactics and how its done, lookup some older posts or click my previosones somewhere it should be. Hit and run, preserve fuel, think ahead use your plane advantages and dont uze disedvatages;) I am on the phone now but when i am gonna get pc i will maybe copy my posts here for those who lazy enough;)

 

I never play multiplayer. :P The internet in my area is now where near good enough to do it. :smilewink: You can post the link to the thread you were talking about so we can see what everyone said. :thumbup:

 

Maybe you can share a story on your best (or worst) moments flying the Mig-21. :D We'd love to hear it along with what tactics you used (or what you should have used in hindsight). :smilewink:

[Verde]

Ok later today or tommor i will post thing or two;)

[kelpie]

Ok later today or tommor i will post thing or two;)

 

Sounds great. :D Can't wait to read them. :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I never even notice when I'm on second stage afterburner unless I'm in F2 view and see it for myself. :P

 

Maybe you should make a graph instead to prove that there's something wrong or not ... emergency on/off with STR at same speed.

 

I also have to have my nose pointed down in order to out run an F-5 so I think it's underpowered too.

 

Why? Nose down to decrease AoA and have gravity help you is a standard separation tactic. Having 'emergency afterburner' doesn't exactly turn you into some sort of Nike Sprint missile where you'll accelerate away at 100g.

[Verde]

So as you wanted some tips and trick on mig-21 here you go, i have just little bit edited text, so it maybe out of context in some points, so sry for that:

 

1.I learned my stuff (the) very hard way by starting that MiG again and again.

In simple terms, you only win if you use the more advantageous aspects of the MiG.

Speed, R3R and radar. It is good enough, you just simply have to back off in time if something in the attack equation is wrong.

 

Don't rush, listen, plan. Attack only one plane at a time.

If there is a pair don't go there.

If you have asymmetrical load don't even bother.

Fly high and only fly low in retreat for getting home, firing flares at 1350km/h.

Listen to awacs, get direction on target.

Fly high and tip upside down, check radar for 2-3 seconds, find target look where it goes. Enough time not to stall engine, remember a little positive G is better on your engine that 0G.

If it is straight on use R3R, manage distance it has to be right. Fire as late as possible!

If he goes head on flare in case AIM-9 comes from F-5.

If you locked target but it ignores U or doesnt go straight at you use R-60M but keep radar on to track the guy. When you can clearly see him turn off radar to let him think you lost lock and he got away and fire heat-seeker.

 

And the main thing!

If u merge drop everything you can. If the fight comes down to 400km/h use take off flaps and you can turn with him if not too much speed is lost and AOA is under red.

Don't rush! No more than 4 missiles at a time! Dont take 6!

If you get one guy quickly than you have chance to continue for some more but don't try to take 3-4 in a single sortie.

 

Use fuel wisely, preserve, be ready to go home with all afterburner.

Use your brain, tactics, and strength of the plane.

You can only win if you train.

 

Longer engagements with f-5 is soooo much fun, there is a lot more to succeful mission. Mainly fuel, cause that can save you, next is technic of flying itself preserving speed or loosing it where needed! Use aoa guage while rotating with f5 you have to look at aoa as much as f5. And then another thing! Learn to use your straight beam lock mode! This actually is overlooked, but if button is mapped for easy use, its very handy, you will be able to lock target even if it is too close for radar screen oor action is too rapid! Map easy buttons to swap between radar modes! It is very useful even for r60, gives distance and frightens enemies when locked.

 

Next even if you have for example r60 IR lock think twice! Will missle hit!? Is distance right? Maybe build speed and do yoyo? Maybe go low in trees! Do not make yourself a superman if you have lock it is not the mission! Mission is to hit the other guy! Ofcours gun is VERY effective! It is powerful, so any hit basicly takes out f-5 . Learn that thing and fire close! I get about even kills with guns r3r and r60 infact! Thats because if r60 is used u have already gone in f-5s territory! Thats already is not in your favour! Remember r60 is rear aspect but r60m all aspect so take those! I think already i told more than i should! But have to say i still mess things up and i am mad that i know i could win but did mistakes. Knowing what to do and doing are different things! And admire those situatins when guy knows his thing and i loose, but thats the beauty of it you always can win just have to learn! But main rule fly for not killing the other guy but fly more not to be killed! Mig has higher power speed you always have time to back off if done in time! But if you feel like rembo, you loose! Just keep practcing not to get killed by plane itself, fuel shortage, flameouts, stalls and only then f5's! If you land back even with 0 kills good job! And last dont fly further than u should if u reached bulls keep high with 85-90 percent power and keep circling, no need to go where awacs says! Be smart assasin! Further u go less fuel and less chance getting back fast! But i really would like to swap knowladges on matter, so anybody want pair just gimme message, dont by shy! Mig is very versatile and true multirole, just needs knowladge skill and PATIENCE

 

Use your r3r, but you have to learn timing, best practice is to shoot two of them in pairs with separation, that way the first missile is fired much further than opponents aim9 so he has to go defensive and will not be able to shoot aim9, but the second one is needed, if the first one misses (it should miss as the distance is high and missile will have no power to track target). As well after two fired r3r you will be right in the merge territory so if you got off your both r3r off the load on wings is equal!

 

If locket target still goes low and does low level manouvers or doesnt even bother about your lock - fly towards it from high above look for it by checking radar lock position and your pipper zoom in your view as soon as you see your contact, you have options depending on situation, but usuually you should at this point turn off you radar and track target with youre eyeballs, if you want silent kill go for r60m, if you got r3r left, take your vertical scan lock (beam mode or how you call that radar mode) And really fast lock and launch missile, usually target will not react fast enough to do anything about it. But this has to be done fast! Hope this time it is more readable! And as usually i have last one comment use youre flares before aim9 is launched it will greatly increase chance of missile not hitting you, just ther matter that flares end fast this way, so it depends in what kind of sh*^t you are. And the last last one, if boogey is on your six with guns and you cannot shake it offand you are slow (400-500km/h) already but not superslow (300km/h), pull stick hard (wannabe cobra aka dynamic breaking), air brakes out and full flaps out just for brief second then, get back to normal and try not to crash or get engine flameout 4 out of 5 times if f-5 was close enough it will go past you, when it does dont rush in getting your pipper on him, youve just gained advantage, keep manouvaring and you will soon be in position for gun fire. This all has to be done in emergency afterburner mode as far as my knowladge goes, with regular afterburner no significant advantage can be gained in rotating with f-5 but that little extra boost give you that extra that can outmanuver f-5, just make shure you are not full on fuel and your missiles are dropped as well as the fuel tank ofcourse.

 

Another tip of the day by me

 

 

I like this stuff, if anyone wants to fly on same-ish level i would like to pair up.

Gives a lot of tactical advantages.

I would like to learn and to teach be my guest

[Verde]

And yes a good training at low level engagements is in user download files. There is mission where you and 3 other AI migs fight against 4 F15 it is really action bomb pace is fast enemy is superior and that mission is doable. You will get killed about 1000 times. Ut on that 1001 time you will get the hang of it how to manage straight beam mode, as well as distance for shooting, guns, flaps, terrain masking... Its fun, just on mission start go left low to avoid enemies superior radar and missiles, after that close merge with lots of luck as well;)

[Verde]

I really like Viggen lately as it depends even more on planing and sticking to it! A thing i am the level where you start to look for those small tactical things that give you edge, just hope someone could give some cool ideas on Viggen part, hope someone could write smth similiar on that or even go in pair online, so if somone wants to tech me viggen or wants some mig give me a message. I am from easter europe. Sry for tripple post

[jackmckay]

Good combat guide Verde. There's also some more things that needs concern. Low level high mach number is very tricky to maintain so careless hit and run (especially run part) is very dangerous because of engine stall at M1.1 and that's why one needs to tune nosecone position to the right place which is not easy part. Air relight is also a tricky part because one needs to maintain glideslope of speed above 550, set idle and hit ignition (for a few seconds, not to burn the medium). By my PO issue is the 2nd stage burner and sluggish acceleration comparing to other similar airplanes (M2K, Viggen) that accelerate way faster and have no problem maintaining low level high speed. Also effectiveness of Aim9 on F5 is kind of better than R60 because least has lust for flares while 9 goes for 21s tail even if swarming flares and engine on idle. In Nam scenarios 9 was way less effective and prone to failures and even today in case of 9X recent failure in Syria that missile is overrated here in DCS. Nevertheless, even unfinished Fishbed is still dangerous in right hands especially if one has good SA and knows all aspect of plane systems. And against F15 it works fine too but its more of case of being backstabber rather than being true adversary. Synchronized pack of 21s is the best option. Also to mention spectacular feel that Fishbed feeds back with its rugged style in all systems. You got to love it.

 

Check this 2nd stage dual takeoff in less than 20 sec:

..

[kelpie]

Maybe you should make a graph instead to prove that there's something wrong or not ... emergency on/off with STR at same speed.

 

 

 

Why? Nose down to decrease AoA and have gravity help you is a standard separation tactic. Having 'emergency afterburner' doesn't exactly turn you into some sort of Nike Sprint missile where you'll accelerate away at 100g.

 

I tried to experiment with the afterburner and emergency afterburner to get some decent data but the engine continuously flamed out so I couldn't get any concrete information to show.

 

I use the low yo-yo maneuver to get in close to my target but I never use it to get away from an enemy. I'm usually too busy trying to get him in-front of me to take him out... or crash into him at least. I never run away. :P

 

I know the emergency afterburner isn't going to act like a solid rocket burner sending the plane into lower orbit. :D But it seems strange that the mig won't speed up when it's on during a climb (I tried it out with a P-51 on my tail. I flipped the switch and the 51 stayed on me and I never got further away from him while in a 30 to 40 degree climb). I just seems odd that it doesn't help even a little against a prop plane. :P

[Verde]

Delta design planes have big drag at low speed, so no power will help if you are slow and with quite high AOA, the emergency afterburner gives more effect when you are a bit faster and make less drag because you are not going with that high AOA.

[kelpie]

So as you wanted some tips and trick on mig-21 here you go, i have just little bit edited text, so it maybe out of context in some points, so sry for that:

 

1.I learned my stuff (the) very hard way by starting that MiG again and again.

In simple terms, you only win if you use the more advantageous aspects of the MiG.

Speed, R3R and radar. It is good enough, you just simply have to back off in time if something in the attack equation is wrong.

 

Don't rush, listen, plan. Attack only one plane at a time.

If there is a pair don't go there.

If you have asymmetrical load don't even bother.

Fly high and only fly low in retreat for getting home, firing flares at 1350km/h.

Listen to awacs, get direction on target.

Fly high and tip upside down, check radar for 2-3 seconds, find target look where it goes. Enough time not to stall engine, remember a little positive G is better on your engine that 0G.

If it is straight on use R3R, manage distance it has to be right. Fire as late as possible!

If he goes head on flare in case AIM-9 comes from F-5.

If you locked target but it ignores U or doesnt go straight at you use R-60M but keep radar on to track the guy. When you can clearly see him turn off radar to let him think you lost lock and he got away and fire heat-seeker.

 

And the main thing!

If u merge drop everything you can. If the fight comes down to 400km/h use take off flaps and you can turn with him if not too much speed is lost and AOA is under red.

Don't rush! No more than 4 missiles at a time! Dont take 6!

If you get one guy quickly than you have chance to continue for some more but don't try to take 3-4 in a single sortie.

 

Use fuel wisely, preserve, be ready to go home with all afterburner.

Use your brain, tactics, and strength of the plane.

You can only win if you train.

 

Longer engagements with f-5 is soooo much fun, there is a lot more to succeful mission. Mainly fuel, cause that can save you, next is technic of flying itself preserving speed or loosing it where needed! Use aoa guage while rotating with f5 you have to look at aoa as much as f5. And then another thing! Learn to use your straight beam lock mode! This actually is overlooked, but if button is mapped for easy use, its very handy, you will be able to lock target even if it is too close for radar screen oor action is too rapid! Map easy buttons to swap between radar modes! It is very useful even for r60, gives distance and frightens enemies when locked.

 

Next even if you have for example r60 IR lock think twice! Will missle hit!? Is distance right? Maybe build speed and do yoyo? Maybe go low in trees! Do not make yourself a superman if you have lock it is not the mission! Mission is to hit the other guy! Ofcours gun is VERY effective! It is powerful, so any hit basicly takes out f-5 . Learn that thing and fire close! I get about even kills with guns r3r and r60 infact! Thats because if r60 is used u have already gone in f-5s territory! Thats already is not in your favour! Remember r60 is rear aspect but r60m all aspect so take those! I think already i told more than i should! But have to say i still mess things up and i am mad that i know i could win but did mistakes. Knowing what to do and doing are different things! And admire those situatins when guy knows his thing and i loose, but thats the beauty of it you always can win just have to learn! But main rule fly for not killing the other guy but fly more not to be killed! Mig has higher power speed you always have time to back off if done in time! But if you feel like rembo, you loose! Just keep practcing not to get killed by plane itself, fuel shortage, flameouts, stalls and only then f5's! If you land back even with 0 kills good job! And last dont fly further than u should if u reached bulls keep high with 85-90 percent power and keep circling, no need to go where awacs says! Be smart assasin! Further u go less fuel and less chance getting back fast! But i really would like to swap knowladges on matter, so anybody want pair just gimme message, dont by shy! Mig is very versatile and true multirole, just needs knowladge skill and PATIENCE

 

Use your r3r, but you have to learn timing, best practice is to shoot two of them in pairs with separation, that way the first missile is fired much further than opponents aim9 so he has to go defensive and will not be able to shoot aim9, but the second one is needed, if the first one misses (it should miss as the distance is high and missile will have no power to track target). As well after two fired r3r you will be right in the merge territory so if you got off your both r3r off the load on wings is equal!

 

If locket target still goes low and does low level manouvers or doesnt even bother about your lock - fly towards it from high above look for it by checking radar lock position and your pipper zoom in your view as soon as you see your contact, you have options depending on situation, but usuually you should at this point turn off you radar and track target with youre eyeballs, if you want silent kill go for r60m, if you got r3r left, take your vertical scan lock (beam mode or how you call that radar mode) And really fast lock and launch missile, usually target will not react fast enough to do anything about it. But this has to be done fast! Hope this time it is more readable! And as usually i have last one comment use youre flares before aim9 is launched it will greatly increase chance of missile not hitting you, just ther matter that flares end fast this way, so it depends in what kind of sh*^t you are. And the last last one, if boogey is on your six with guns and you cannot shake it offand you are slow (400-500km/h) already but not superslow (300km/h), pull stick hard (wannabe cobra aka dynamic breaking), air brakes out and full flaps out just for brief second then, get back to normal and try not to crash or get engine flameout 4 out of 5 times if f-5 was close enough it will go past you, when it does dont rush in getting your pipper on him, youve just gained advantage, keep manouvaring and you will soon be in position for gun fire. This all has to be done in emergency afterburner mode as far as my knowladge goes, with regular afterburner no significant advantage can be gained in rotating with f-5 but that little extra boost give you that extra that can outmanuver f-5, just make shure you are not full on fuel and your missiles are dropped as well as the fuel tank ofcourse.

 

Another tip of the day by me

 

 

I like this stuff, if anyone wants to fly on same-ish level i would like to pair up.

Gives a lot of tactical advantages.

I would like to learn and to teach be my guest

 

Copy, Paste, Saved. :D Great information. I'll need to give them a try. Thanks. :D

 

And yes a good training at low level engagements is in user download files. There is mission where you and 3 other AI migs fight against 4 F15 it is really action bomb pace is fast enemy is superior and that mission is doable. You will get killed about 1000 times. Ut on that 1001 time you will get the hang of it how to manage straight beam mode, as well as distance for shooting, guns, flaps, terrain masking... Its fun, just on mission start go left low to avoid enemies superior radar and missiles, after that close merge with lots of luck as well;)

 

I haven't tried those missions yet. :P I'll need to give them a try. :smilewink:

 

I really like Viggen lately as it depends even more on planing and sticking to it! A thing i am the level where you start to look for those small tactical things that give you edge, just hope someone could give some cool ideas on Viggen part, hope someone could write smth similiar on that or even go in pair online, so if somone wants to tech me viggen or wants some mig give me a message. I am from easter europe. Sry for tripple post

 

I haven't bought the Viggen yet. I've been saving up for the F-14 and Mig-19 first. :smilewink: I'd love to try online multiplayer but with the bad internet in my area of SE Asia i'd never get more than a few minutes on before it would conk out. :P

 

Delta design planes have big drag at low speed, so no power will help if you are slow and with quite high AOA, the emergency afterburner gives more effect when you are a bit faster and make less drag because you are not going with that high AOA.

 

Ah, that makes sense. :smilewink: I was trying to make him stall but I guess I did it to myself. :doh: :P

[GGTharos]

Also it's supposed to be used below 4000m ... I suspect above that there's either not enough oxygen to feed it or not enough airflow to cool it, or both.

[kelpie]

Also it's supposed to be used below 4000m ... I suspect above that there's either not enough oxygen to feed it or not enough airflow to cool it, or both.

 

Probably both. :P Especially if the setting is in the hot summer then it really needs a lot of airflow to cool it down. :smilewink:

[Fri13]

Definitely not, I agree. That said, if you have the opportunity and you really know the airplane, it can truly defy the stereotype of "you can only fly the Mig-21 fast".

 

This and many times of it.

 

Times after times it has been shown even in real world that "inferior" aircraft with specific maneuvers or "tactics" can overcome the "superior" aircraft that is piloted by "more experienced pilot". When the difference between aircrafts becomes small enough, then it comes to pilots knowledge to know what they can do (so they know they can do it) but when the knowledge is fitting for the situation, then comes the main crucial differential and that is the timing and the will to see through the decision.

 

In simulators we don't have that what it really takes, because we can always respawn again. It doesn't deliver us the G-forces and the adrenaline feeling about fighting by your life or heroism to go and save your wingman/lead and push yourself as the aircraft to the limits and using your knowledge and timing the tactics in manner that puts the other side to disadvantage!

 

The typical arguments standing points are that every pilot can put the aircraft to peak performance levels at any point by the will, and can perform every maneuver exactly by the book in every situation etc.

Yet even best trained and schooled pilot can find to be in position where a "inferior" aircraft has surprised and gotten better position.

[lemoen]

@Verde, I think they fixed upside-down radar thing, so you're not supposed to be able to see other planes against the background clutter easily anymore, regardless of your orientation.

[Verde]

Maybe, but in my case it was more to see guys below, not exactly in the ground background, if you fly 10000m and bogeys are at 7000m you go invertetd.

[shonist]

CALLING ALL AUTOBOTS!!!! :D

 

Fixed that for u.

[kelpie]

Fixed that for u.

:lol: :megalol: :thumbup:

[lemoen]

Maybe, but in my case it was more to see guys below, not exactly in the ground background, if you fly 10000m and bogeys are at 7000m you go invertetd.

 

You mean to see them with your eyeballs? Because the radar really shouldn't see them. There's a reason look-down-shoot-down was highly sought-after

[Verde]

What angle you call down? I am talking some maybe 10 maybe 15 not some 45;)