MiG-21 ECM

[Hiromachi]

1. I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, for me this is a bit weird question. But to try to answer, the reception of signal from scanning or tracking you radar is crucial for the SPS-141 to not only analyze but also create specific set of jamming signals, depending on the type of radar that is "looking" at you. And no, SPS-141 does not display any information on the type of radar that focuses on you.

 

The above depends of course on the position of the switch Receive / Transmit. In first case it will only analyze signals, in latter case it will transmit jamming signal. And information whether enemy radar is operating in search mode or track mode is displayed in form of ОБЛУЧЕН light (in search mode it should be blinking, in track mode it should be constant light). But thats it.

 

2. I did some testing back in the day but I couldnt observe any differences, at least in launch range for HAWK system. In reality SPS-141 would operate in more sophisticated manner but in DCS system has to be simplified to the environment.

 

3. It should be possible. I will try asking our programmer how its intended to operate.

[Alpenwolf]

Alright, let me try again.

How is analysing the signal protects my aircraft from being detected or tracked by a missile? Transmiting an implified signal in a distributed way to "confuse" the enemy's radar makes sense to me. I'm just not sure about the receiving method's way of providing protection.

[m4ti140]

Alright, let me try again.

How is analysing the signal protects my aircraft from being detected or tracked by a missile? Transmiting an implified signal in a distributed way to "confuse" the enemy's radar makes sense to me. I'm just not sure about the receiving method's way of providing protection.

 

 

It DOESN'T. It's your standby mode. There's no use out of it in DCS, it's for recording the signal without potentially giving away your position by retransmitting it. IRL it could be used to later analyse the signal. In DCS it serves no purpose. And this pod was not used for ELINT IRL, so I'm not sure how much use out of this mode would there even be IRL. So no Viggen functionality either.

 

It should also be noted that while IRL the pod would make Hawk radar consider you noise and filter you out, in DCS all jammers work the same against all radars - they make distance determination harder for the radar but also announce your bearing if you were not yet detected.

Edited August 29, 2020 by m4ti140

[Hiromachi]

It doesnt. Its there merely for you to know that you are being looked at. Thing is that you dont always want to transmit jamming signal, especially during non-combat mission since there is a chance for jamming signal to be intercepted. This is a highly confidential equipment and even its operation was up until recently classified. Thankfully its not anymore.

 

So Receive mode is just a way to observe without reacting.

[Alpenwolf]

Now I understand. Thank you both for the reply.

One can only hope ED comes up with its own jamming method based on speculation, guessing and whatever data is available. I know it ain't easy though.

[Gustav960]

Hello! 

 

Has the SPS-141 pod been updated? There seems to be some mixed views on it's functionality. While I understand that DCS only has a basic ECM/jamming model, does the SPS-141 work at all? For example, the Viggen works pretty well against SA-2 and SA-6 sites... can the SPS-141 handle a Hawk site? Maybe not jam it completely but get me close enough? 

 

Thanks!

 

Gregg

[Harlikwin]

Well, the SPS-141 was specifically designed to jam the Hawk, and IRL during the iran/iraq war worked well in that role according to various reports I've seen. 

 

In DCS pretty much all the jammers do are 2 things vs SAM's:

 

Reduce the launch range (so when they do launch you'll be a sitting duck ironically)

Increase the time to launch somewhat. 

Hollbeach did some testing for the harrier ECM pod over in the AV8B section (~pg 200 of his thread). 

You would be best of just testing it offline in a canned scenario to see how well it actually works. Check launch range and time from when you start to get a lock warning to a launch warning for whatever altitude.

 

[Fri13]

On 2/16/2021 at 11:36 PM, Harlikwin said:

Reduce the launch range (so when they do launch you'll be a sitting duck ironically)

 

Didn't the lock range capability as well shrink as overall? Or it really is just so that launch range is shorter but guidance range is same, meaning (as you suggest with sitting duck) that even if you would turn away, the missile will hit you as the lock range is far further than launch range was?

 

As I recall that we have three main distances:

- Detection distance (when the radar "see" you. But your RWR can detect the radar +xx% further distance as another modifier)

- Lock distance (when the radar can track you), and that can be modified in Combined Arms with the percentage of launch range, like 80% of maximum. Default is 100%.

- Launch time (when the launcher can fire at you after locking you),

 

And so on I thought that we had two main effects with jammer:

And that gets effected by the ECM noise jammer in DCS:

- Detection distance increase (your direction is found much sooner)

- Lock distance decreased (when the radar can acquire lock on you)

- Launch distance decreased because locking range is closer, but the time to actually launch after getting lock stays same.

 

As in DCS the SAM systems are totally unrealistic by their capabilities and severely limited to 1 or 0 capability. Meaning we can brake a radar lock just by visiting 1 meter further distance than the maximum lock range is in the game file set for the unit. Like if SAM has lock range of 4000 meters, then flying 4001 meters brakes the lock and missile is lost, no matter where the missile is like if it is 50 meters from you it will self-destruct and cause no harm.

 

And so on when ECM is On, the lock range would get as well shorter, so instead 4000 meters it becomes example 3200 meters and now you can just fly to 3201 meters and brake a lock.

So it really is that lock range is ineffected but just the launch time is modified.

So we have the full 4000 meters lock range, but launch range is dropped to 3200 meters (as they are same otherwise) and once missile is in the air, you need to reach 4001 meters range instead 3201 meters to brake the lock?

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Fri13

[Harlikwin]

5 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

Didn't the lock range capability as well shrink as overall? Or it really is just so that launch range is shorter but guidance range is same, meaning (as you suggest with sitting duck) that even if you would turn away, the missile will hit you as the lock range is far further than launch range was?

 

And so on when ECM is On, the lock range would get as well shorter, so instead 4000 meters it becomes example 3200 meters and now you can just fly to 3201 meters and brake a lock.

So it really is that lock range is ineffected but just the launch time is modified.

So we have the full 4000 meters lock range, but launch range is dropped to 3200 meters (as they are same otherwise) and once missile is in the air, you need to reach 4001 meters range instead 3201 meters to brake the lock?

 

I actually mainly meant kineamtically for the missiles as well as the flight time. Basically its much easier to dodge a missile fired from max range versus a much shorter range. And yes I Think you are right in the sense that you can still break the lock at a shorter range with the ECM on.

 

The other thing I wonder if ECM is actually modeled hemispherically like most of the jammers IRL only work in a frontal or rear arc.

 

[MiG hooked]

On 2/18/2021 at 5:24 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

The other thing I wonder if ECM is actually modeled hemispherically like most of the jammers IRL only work in a frontal or rear arc.

 

 

That I can answer, since I tested it with a buddy flying an F-5E after I read in this forum, that the real SPS-141 should jam in a frontal arc only. His radar got jammed both in a head to head and a pursuit.

 

For ECM effectiveness against SAMs i recommend watching this video: 

 

PS: The result of the MiG-21 vs. the HAWK disappointed me the most. :(

Edited February 20, 2021 by MiG hooked

[Gustav960]

Thanks to everyone who replied. 

 

I just did some informal (and far from scientific) testing with the MiG-21 SPO Jammer and and my buddy in a F/A-18 and M2000. It seemed like his radar did not "see" me until he was much closer. I tried different "modes" and configurations and it all seems about the same. In a few head to head instances I got close enough without a Sparrow launch to toss an R-60M and make the hornet turn before the 3-9 or destroy it out right. 

 

The M2000 was different matter, the radar does not seem to be as confused by the jammer. (I did however, by blind luck and complete accident, manage to shoot down a SUPER with an R60. Foul language was used.) My buddy reports that the M2000 did detect the 21 at about the same range, but perhaps the ability to lock was somewhat diminished. 

 

The video above has convinced me that the jammer is not worth taking against SAMS. 

 

Unrelated: I have found that the U/22A jammer on the Viggen is great for SEAD against older SAM sites (not the S300). If the Viggen comes in low, fast, and with the jammer on: It can hit the SAM site BK90s or high drag bombs easily. 

[Harlikwin]

6 hours ago, GreggBummer said:

 

 

Unrelated: I have found that the U/22A jammer on the Viggen is great for SEAD against older SAM sites (not the S300). If the Viggen comes in low, fast, and with the jammer on: It can hit the SAM site BK90s or high drag bombs easily. 

Not for a hawk site unfortunately.

 

[rossmum]

Fingers crossed that the ASPJ and its track-breaking function will usher in a new age of actually functional ECM in the game. It'd really be nice to have a reason for, say, two MiGs in an offensive sweep of four to be carrying jammers for mutual protection, or to help suppress Hawk sites.