SA-10

[SwingKid]

Well, if it isn't too far off-topic, I have a Russian language eyewitness claim that the S-300 hits targets farther than the officially-claimed 47 km (which itself appears to match the Wikipedia claim), and that the claimed 47 km performance was never revised upwards for subjective/political reasons.

 

For whatever it's worth...

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

I'm not surprised. Those are some pretty big missiles; but I wouldn't really expect them to actually start shooting at such ranges against low altitude targets. Also, I'm quite certain they could do it if push came to shove, I just don't think its a high-Pk shot nor standard procedure.

 

PS: There are some great descriptions of the NIKE Hercules' operation, I think I've given you the link to that before. That weapon could be dropped in Surface-Surface mode some 100km from its launch point. Typical practiced intercept against a high-altitude, high-speed bomber was around 40-50nm (Actually impact range, not engagement range) - so examples of long-ranged missiles exist from quite far back. A low altitude aircraft would have to be attacked at a shorter range. Unfortnately, a low-altitude profile is not provided for comparison. In addition, minizap doesn't simulate a NIKE-Hercules-like flightpath :(

[SoaringEagle74]

No, they aren't. If all you have is SAMs, you won't stop Air Power. You need air power to stop air power. That may change when we get death-rays.

 

I agree 100%. I never claimed sams alone will do the job. Anyone who suggests that is ignorant! Sams are helpful in slowing down the enemy...giving defensive forces time to react...etc.

 

I guess I am a bit biased with them but thats because I usually don't have much success evading them. I remember getting shot 40-50kms away and I was even flying low. After a while it gets to you! The reason is that if a mission is oversaturated with ground anti-air units it can be very tough to pick the right corridor or altitude. Hint: I go low to evade sam but get shot at by manpad or some other IR threat camoflagued in the woods waiting to rip me apart.

[SoaringEagle74]

Well, I'll agree with you on one thing, a lot of information is thrown around by a very few people who appear to be in the know, but they sure as hell don't give up their sources very often. They probably want others to do the leg work they did. My gut instinct tells me that there are people here who are profiting financially from that leg work. If thats the case, then you can be doubly assured that they're not going to share anything. Also, I know for a fact that some of this info was not free. Again, if they paid for it they're probably not going to be willing to just spout off all this info for free.

 

And yes, discussions are difficult when one side holds all the cards and aren't willing to show them. You can either argue further and look like a fool, go out and find/buy this info on your own, or just realize you have different priorities and just listen and comment where you have some real knowledge, which is what I often do.

 

I hope your not suggesting that I profit from information because that would be silly. The only reason I ask for evidence is so I can judge for myself what to believe. If people don't wish to share information on a peer-to-peer basis or can't that is fine but I am not obligated to believe them especially if the said claims are a bit far fetched.

[GGTharos]

Lock on has a problem in that the SAM AI isn't terribly intelligent, and even a MANPAD is hard to see (unless hidden well). To compensate you have to litter the landscape with SAMs, at least if you want to make it a point that some area is well defended.

 

LOMAC aside, it is realistic to pick an avenue of likely aproach by the enemy, and stick a big SAM overlooking it, then SHORAD 10-20km down the path from that SAM (as well as near it). You can use far less SAMs this way, but most people don't do this.

Another reason why it isn't done in LOMAC is that distances are really too short, so your 'avenues of aproach" lay all around your target site.

 

The way you can try to get around this is ... first and foremost, bring friends. Second, if at all possible, get SEAD to blow up the big SAm so you can fly high.

Tactically, you want your head on a swivel if you're forced low to pick up those launches, but more importantly figure out how far away you think some shorad will be placed from the big SAM and pop a flare every 3 sec or so all the way in. It's not guaranteed to save you, but it increases your chances.

 

If you're doing all this as a singleton, it's not /impossible/ but realistically you shouldn't be expecting to have good results. Realistically speaking. :) In lomac it's not quite as hard, though I think you may need someone to teach you the tricks of the trade.

[GGTharos]

QFT. That is the price to pay when one doesn't shower the forum with links. :)

 

You can certainly try doing searches on this forum though, and you might find some interesting references.

 

I hope your not suggesting that I profit from information because that would be silly. The only reason I ask for evidence is so I can judge for myself what to believe. If people don't wish to share information on a peer-to-peer basis or can't that is fine but I am not obligated to believe them especially if the said claims are a bit far fetched.

[SoaringEagle74]

If you're doing all this as a singleton, it's not /impossible/ but realistically you shouldn't be expecting to have good results. Realistically speaking. :) In lomac it's not quite as hard, though I think you may need someone to teach you the tricks of the trade.

 

Very good points...now I think you understand what I am talking about although I don't necessarily agree that their ai intelligence is low. Quite to the contrary I think they are lethal.

 

Anway, its very tough doing everything solo and I definitely need more practice at it. Unfortunately, I don't get to play as often as I would like due to family responsibilities so what would take others a few weeks to learn would probably take me months.

 

I would really like to fly online more but my damm(sorry bad english) laptop is slow as h e ll. 128 mb graphics card and 1GB ram. Also, I prefer using labels, external views, etc except auto re-arming and auto-refueling. It makes my training missions more easy since I can focus on gathering data without straining eyes and constantly guessing where the next missile come from. 1024x768 is not exactly eye friendly!:)

 

Cheers

[GGTharos]

No, AI is terrible. You get hit by the IR missiles because you don't see them coming. That's just an ambush, that's all - you can prevent it but it won't always work. It's like getting shot by a sniper.

 

You'll eventually notice though that SAMs will typically fire at too great a range, allowing you to just orbit in place as they fire all their missiles in vain. Radar SAMs never attempt to surprise you either. It is quite bad. Being stuck in surprising places is the only thing that can help them :)

 

Also radar SAMs are just horrible against very low flying targets in LO. Their Pk is zero if you do things right.

[AlexHunter]

How much do you know about the states? ;)

I know what Russia did to my birth country. Are you saying I need to know more? I think it is your mind that isn't open, not mine, as you seem to be implying AlexHunter.

 

But enough of this, if you want to talk about it PM me, otherwise if we proceed with political discussion, this thread will be locked, and this has nothing to do with SA-10 :)

 

You wrong deeply!!! ;)

 

All already a long ago in PM and on this post also.

[AlexHunter]

Well, if it isn't too far off-topic, I have a Russian language eyewitness claim that the S-300 hits targets farther than the officially-claimed 47 km (which itself appears to match the Wikipedia claim), and that the claimed 47 km performance was never revised upwards for subjective/political reasons.

 

For whatever it's worth...

 

-SK

And beats far, but if target on a low height that it is eventual problem (a rumour is not present from a distant rocket if a target was noticed in 10-20km, for this go there are other rockets in a complex, and even quite these aims will be the anxiety of complexes of protection of type of TOR-M or other), though and RLS on Tower. The long-range of complex was done above all things for the defeat of height aims of type of DRLO and Airplanes of Producers of hindrances (all agree, that to fly these airplanes low there is not sense :)), and other as bonus. RLS on S300 just on towers and put approximately whew.

 

original:Да далеко бьет, но если цель на низкой высоте то это конечно проблема (толку нету от дальней ракеты если цель заметили в 10-20км, для это го в комплексе есть другие ракеты, а то и вовсе данные цели будут заботой комплексов прикрытия типа ТОР-М или других), хоть и РЛС на Вышке. Дальнобойность комплекса делалась в первую очередь для поражения высотных целей типа ДРЛО и Самолетов Постановщиков помех (все согласны, что данным самолетам летать низко нет смысла :)), а остальное как бонус. РЛС на С300 как раз на вышки и ставят примерно вот так.

[SoaringEagle74]

No, AI is terrible. You get hit by the IR missiles because you don't see them coming. That's just an ambush, that's all - you can prevent it but it won't always work. It's like getting shot by a sniper.

 

You'll eventually notice though that SAMs will typically fire at too great a range, allowing you to just orbit in place as they fire all their missiles in vain. Radar SAMs never attempt to surprise you either. It is quite bad. Being stuck in surprising places is the only thing that can help them :)

 

Also radar SAMs are just horrible against very low flying targets in LO. Their Pk is zero if you do things right.

 

Its the IR sams that annoy me...not the radar variants. First you get no radar warning and even if you see them its usually too late to react.

[GGTharos]

Which is why the flares should be out when you suspect they're around ... not waiting until they fire :)

[S77th-konkussion]

The F-22 was a cold war project to deal with the S-300. The question is: “Will it deal also with the S-400?”

We even don’t know if it would deal with the 300.

 

We do know that the F-117 and the F-22 can’t deal with the latest generation Patriots. Why would it with the S-400?:megalol:

 

You "know" precisely NONE of this.

 

Show me the document that says- "We havta build the F22 to deal with the S-300." I hope you have something better than wikipedia.

[RedTiger]

I hope your not suggesting that I profit from information because that would be silly. The only reason I ask for evidence is so I can judge for myself what to believe. If people don't wish to share information on a peer-to-peer basis or can't that is fine but I am not obligated to believe them especially if the said claims are a bit far fetched.

 

No, thats not it at all. Basically, you can just sum up my point as "people have their reasons for not providing you direct access to their information". :)

 

@S77th-konkussion

 

There seems to be a lot of stuff like that about the Raptor on the inter-webs. Everyone likes to have their own "facts" about what prompted its development.