Questions for real fighter pilots (if any here)

[mvsgas]

Interesting overview, thought the vipers have that MPO switch (manual pitch override) near the throttle and can disable the limiter. This switch is normally used to recover from departures but can be used also to gain some extra angles in a dogfight for example.

MPO switch only work on Pitch down nothing els. We check this before flight during aircraft launch procedures. You have to hold it on so wouldn't help in anything except recovering from a stall with over 65 degrees of alfa or deep stall IIRC.

Semper Viper /Flight controls

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V01N2_SM_1271449318_5418.pdf

 

Semper viper/ Departures

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V01N3_SM_1271449318_2157.pdf

 

 

Both of this articles are based on the A model F-16 ( block 20 and below) but same still applies, even to the block 60, AFAIK.

Edited February 16, 2011 by mvsgas

[vanir]

Yeah the lecturer was pretty specific about the limiter, which he said became an issue with the digital FBW in the later vipers. The MiG, if the pilot disabled the safety system could pull higher AoA more readily and easily during combat maneouvres, but the Viper made up for it by being so much easier to fly at the same kind of overall extremes.

 

His conclusion was that a Block 50 was superior at all altitudes, mainly for this reason and the earlier (eg. Block 30) F-16 was slightly superior at low alt but the MiG was slightly superior at higher alts. Overall the F-16 can sustain better turns and is quicker down low (by quite a margin at intermediate thrust settings), but the MiG is ridiculously agile and seriously narrows the gap as altitudes rise, or a really good pilot is in the seat and works hard.

 

He said the Eagle was superior at low alt in close combat, is just infinitely tougher structurally for it, but unless you BVR the MiG has the goods as altitudes rise because of how quickly it can bring the nose around at speed. Combined with the Archers it made a very deadly combination.

 

The Luftwaffe had to actually change the rules for dissimilar training against the MiG even for Vipers when using Archers in close combat, and had to operate without kill removal because the Vipers never stood a chance. Complete reverse of the situation with BVR.

At the end of one early training series in the 90s a whole room full of USAF pilots got up and walked out in frustration during the debrief, which made the JG73 Luftwaffe commander laugh. The only hit in close combat they scored was by one F-16 after it had taken 18 Archers.

He did say they couldn't get in close enough for this advantage if facing Amraams though.

[FLANKERATOR]

Well, in Falcon, some use MPO to override computer limitations in certain scenarios...but I've never seen a top falcon "dogfighter" do that...guess that's a sim exploit only. Same story goes with flaps in the F16.

[mvsgas]

There are some dash ones floating around the net (one from the greek air force and one from USAF block 25) that actually warn not to do thing like that to override FLCCs/DFLCC limiters.

[vanir]

I should look up the post at F-16.net again because paraphrasing memory can sometimes be awry, but I'm pretty sure the guy mentioned you could fight the limiter (I inferred with the early analogue F-16 you could switch it off temporarily but with the digital you couldn't or shouldn't, no idea how accurate that is), still he said something of the outright AoA capabilities of the MiG being a good 5-degrees or so better without departure in any case.

 

The MiG safety system is just a hydraulic rod that pushes against the stick iirc, which pilots could fight anyway, where the F-16 limiter is an increase in stick pressure? I'm really not sure what I'm talking about here so forgive me if I'm remembering this whole thing all wrong or just got the wrong impressions.

 

But the thing was the MiG limiter didn't start until 28 AoA while the F-16 starts at 24 AoA so there's that, and then the MiG one could be safely disengaged because of the inherent stability of the design, where the F-16 under digital FBW needed the control system at all times. I think that was it. So you had an advantage there, if you were prepared to increase the pilot workload and really govern yourself once you disabled the control system.

 

But he said whilst prohibited to do, a good MiG pilot should and would if pressed in CWC with a late Viper and it can be very competitive.

[RIPTIDE]

i agree with you about that.

 

but in FC2 MiG-29A in a head-on BvR with rockets or guns only can win against full weapon loaded F-15C ???

 

look my test track i fly and you will see what i talking about.

 

 

Mig29A vs F15C both with rocket 3 ways of fight:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/t7KgxfGv/BvR.html

 

 

Mig29A only guns vs F15C full weapon loaded:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/XiDlspr0/BvR_sa_topovima.html

 

 

In real life is this possible to do ???

 

THNKS.

That's the problem with Ai though.... too easy and predictable.

[mvsgas]

I should look up the post at F-16.net again because paraphrasing memory can sometimes be awry, but I'm pretty sure the guy mentioned you could fight the limiter (I inferred with the early analogue F-16 you could switch it off temporarily but with the digital you couldn't or shouldn't, no idea how accurate that is), still he said something of the outright AoA capabilities of the MiG being a good 5-degrees or so better without departure in any case.

 

The MiG safety system is just a hydraulic rod that pushes against the stick iirc, which pilots could fight anyway, where the F-16 limiter is an increase in stick pressure? I'm really not sure what I'm talking about here so forgive me if I'm remembering this whole thing all wrong or just got the wrong impressions.

 

But the thing was the MiG limiter didn't start until 28 AoA while the F-16 starts at 24 AoA so there's that, and then the MiG one could be safely disengaged because of the inherent stability of the design, where the F-16 under digital FBW needed the control system at all times. I think that was it. So you had an advantage there, if you were prepared to increase the pilot workload and really govern yourself once you disabled the control system.

 

But he said whilst prohibited to do, a good MiG pilot should and would if pressed in CWC with a late Viper and it can be very competitive.

 

What you you mean by "fighting the limiter"

[vanir]

He described it as while flying the MiG a rod would push against the stick but you could still out-muscle it, it would try to jab it back forward, increasing pressure the more you increased AoA so it became hard work if you were trying to sustain something like 30 AoA.

What you could also do is just switch the control system off, but this was not an acceptable pilot procedure (though oddly the feature existed).

 

Probably like the engine management override for an Eagle to exceed 1.78 Mach, "you're never allowed to touch this switch here" which is placed handy for you to switch if you need to. But the engines will require a complete tear down overhaul if you do so you might need a really good reason.

[vanir]

:D you actually have to laugh sometimes at technical nomenclature, "AoA limiter" can sometimes mean "a mechanical hand that tries to take the stick from you"

 

haha

gotta love russians.

[mvsgas]

He described it as while flying the MiG a rod would push against the stick but you could still out-muscle it, it would try to jab it back forward, increasing pressure the more you increased AoA so it became hard work if you were trying to sustain something like 30 AoA.

What you could also do is just switch the control system off, but this was not an acceptable pilot procedure (though oddly the feature existed).

 

Probably like the engine management override for an Eagle to exceed 1.78 Mach, "you're never allowed to touch this switch here" which is placed handy for you to switch if you need to. But the engines will require a complete tear down overhaul if you do so you might need a really good reason.

I was asking about the F-16 part. The F-16 has not physical connection at all with hydraulic actuator nor flight control surfaces, So I was wondering what did you meant with fighting the limiter.

 

The engine override for the eagle is a PW thing, all aircraft with that engine had it. I works like max power on the KA-50, turns the EGT (FTIT in PW case) to a higher limits allowing the engine to temporarily produce more power while it destroys itself.

Edited February 17, 2011 by mvsgas

[vanir]

Yeah I know the F-16 uses FBW both analogue and digital, the context of fighting the limiter was used for the MiG, though you could also continue AoA increase in the F-16 (to something like 28 AoA iirc) after the limiter started kicking in, but I assume it was working by control interpretation so "fighting the limiter" wouldn't be the best way to describe it as it would with the MiG.

Overall the point he was making was pilot workload increased as you approached envelope limits, so the F-16 was easier to fly at extremes but the MiG could pretty much match performance, not as easily.

Edited February 17, 2011 by vanir

[mvsgas]

Oh ok, thanks

Block 32 and below is analog (FLCC) 40 and above is digital (DFLCC)