Major Problem with A-10 Helo-hunt Missions

[ALDEGA]

Dude, just think about what you said. Just right now. Beam riding missile? The only 'beams' the -25T has is the LASER. So it rides the laser beam. Are you with me? This leads to my next point...to ride a laser beam, the laser must be 'lased', or painting a target.

The Vikhr receives the laser signal from its rear, sent from the Su-25T. Su-25T does not paint the target with a laser which the Vikhr picks up and flies towards. From your explanation it sounds as if the Su-25T is putting a laser on the target (conventional system), and not the Su-25T sending a laser signal that the Vikhr missile receives at its rear.

 

The fact is that Vikhr can be used against moving aerial targets. So it's not a question about "lasing air" as you would put it. The discussion is about the positive hit ratio and when it should fail to hit the target. You are trying to say that Vikhr missile should be almost 99% useless against any moving aerial vehicle.

[D-Scythe]

Okay, but then even if it is a beam-riding missile, how does it know where the target is so that it can adjust its spiralling flight path accordingly? When it is just riding the beam, nothing else, it has direction/bearing information, but no range information. Tanks are relatively small targets, and even the slightest miss due to the 'spiral' effect can throw off its shaped-charged warhead.

 

I'm not disputing the fact that the Vikhr can hit aerial targets...I think I repeatedly stated as much ;)...but just said that there are tons of reasons why the Vikhr shouldn't be 100% in LOMAC, one of them which is the laser riding guidance it uses. And from what I know, even beam riding weapons need a laser painting its target, for ranging information if nothing else, which greatly improves accuracy.

[ALDEGA]

The "directions" that are given to the Vikhr missile in-flight (let's consider that we targetted a moving tank) must come from the host aircraft's laser. How exactly it works, I dunno, I'm not a scientist. ;)

[Trident]

There are infact pictures of a Vikhr being tested against a Tu-16 drone ;) The aircraft was slow though (landing gear extended). I haven't encountered this problem in LOMAC yet, but if it's anything like what you describe the performance probably needs to be toned down a bit (not to mention the known AI problems, using Vikhrs when you still have Archers is indeed a bit weird). As it's not a purpose built AA missile the PK should be pretty low, even though it designed to be used for this task as a secondary role.

 

This is likely a similar issue to the problem with MBTs using their mainguns against aerial targets with exaggerated success.

[D-Scythe]

The "directions" that are given to the Vikhr missile in-flight (let's consider that we targetted a moving tank) must come from the host aircraft's laser. How exactly it works, I dunno, I'm not a scientist. ;)

 

Well, typically, these directions involve a laser "painting" its target ;) Ya know, to provide data like slant-range, direction etc....i.e. exact position of target.

 

And secondly, again, an A-10 is not a tank - this is a whole different arena we're talking about here. No offense meant, but no, let's not consider a tank.

 

How can you make a track of this? I might consider trying one.

[Trident]

The "directions" that are given to the Vikhr missile in-flight (let's consider that we targetted a moving tank) must come from the host aircraft's laser. How exactly it works, I dunno, I'm not a scientist. ;)

 

Coded pulsing by the laser probably. This is nothing special, most designation lasers are coded anyway for deconfliction, so the technology is already there.

[ALDEGA]

Well, typically, these directions involve a laser "painting" its target ;) Ya know, to provide data like slant-range, direction etc....i.e. exact position of target.

What I meant was "I don't know how this data is sent over the laser signal".

 

And secondly, again, an A-10 is not a tank - this is a whole different arena we're talking about here. No offense meant, but no, let's not consider a tank.

I meant that the Vikhr missile is intended to be capable to fired on moving objects (even ground targets like tanks move around and Vikhr must be capable to adjust flight directions in-flight).

[ALDEGA]

Coded pulsing by the laser probably. This is nothing special, most designation lasers are coded anyway for deconfliction, so the technology is already there.

Sort of morse-code, but with light? Like a TV remote control? How much data do you estimate the laser designator in Su-25T can send successfully in, say, one second? I assume this data includes some error correction bits to filter invalid data.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a real Su-25T fire some Vikhrs on a test range ;)

[Trident]

I've no idea on the transfer rate, I don't even know if that is how it's done, but as I said it is certainly possible. Like D-Scythe remarked however the range info to be sent would have to be collected by a second laser range finder.

 

Unfortunately the site where I originally found the pic (Overscan's page) is not available right now.

[GGTharos]

It's a BEAM RIDER.

 

It doesn't receive instructions from the aircraft, it just has sensors in teh rear to sense if its in the aircraft's laser beam and it tries to stay in it. It does the guidance on its own.

 

It's also unlikely to be receiving range data beyond possibly downloaded data at the moment of launch; the spirals tighten as the missile orients itself more tightly aroudn the beam rather that range, IMHO. I wouldn't trust LOMAC's fliht path representation to necessarily representt he real one exactly, just a good visual approximation of it. What I'm trying to say is that the missile's spirals might be quite a bit less exaggerated in RL, and the missile may settle on the beam (and so much tighter spiral) well before it hits the target, whereas in LOMAC it acts as if receiving range information, which it probably shouldn't need to. That makes it a more complex system than it needs to be, basically.

 

As the distance from the aircraft inscreases, so does the angle traverse for the laser which may in and of itself necessitate thightening the flight into the beam - and this may also be the cause for the weapon's minimum employment range - essentially it needs time to find and center on the beam.