Notching & BVR Tactics, help for new fighter pilots (FC3)

[GGTharos]

I think that shows some of the basics of the notch, I would argue that the 'how to' portion is too stuck in the HuD/RWR though. When intending to notch, pick a terrain feature 90 deg from the direction of the offending radar, and point the nose that way. Don't stare at the RWR or HUD, you need to be looking towards the bandit.

 

 

<< +1 @dooom :thumbup:

 

Most helpful.

 

@GGTharos / @EtherealN, what's your take on that vid? Any recommendations, corrections, ways to improve?

[EtherealN]

How about this ?

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

How about this:

 

Method 1:

Crank with 20 degree dive, idle and boards.

 

R-27ER, ~34km launch.

Time to impact: 36 seconds.

Missile TAS on impact: ~1 779 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~798 km/h.

 

R-27ER, ~28km launch.

Time to impact: 27 seconds.

Missile TAS on impact: ~2 382 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~777 km/h.

 

R-27ER, ~23km launch.

Time to impact: 20 seconds after launch.

Missile TAS on impact: ~3 044 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~861 km/h.

 

 

 

Method 2:

Crank with 20 degree dive, idle.

 

R-27ER, ~34km launch.

Time to impact: no impact.

Missile TAS on impact: no impact.

Ownship TAS on impact: no impact.

 

R-27ER, ~28km launch.

Time to impact: 27 seconds.

Missile TAS on impact: ~2 389 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~1 010 km/h.

 

R-27ER, ~23km launch.

Time to impact: 20 seconds.

Missile TAS on impact: ~3 035 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~938 km/h.

 

 

 

Method 3:

Crank with 20 degree dive, burner to Vmax.

 

R-27ER, ~34km launch.

Time to impact: no impact.

Missile TAS on impact: no impact.

Ownship TAS on impact: no impact.

 

R-27ER, ~28km launch.

Time to impact: no impact.

Missile TAS on impact: no impact.

Ownship TAS on impact: no impact.

 

R-27ER, ~23km launch.

Time to impact: 20 seconds.

Missile TAS on impact: ~3 002 km/h.

Ownship TAS on impact: ~1 327 km/h.

 

 

 

NOTE: Using 1.2.2 release version, so still incomplete missile tuning. R-27ER should be better. But I think the difference indicates what I'm talking about. At close ranges, going slow gains you nothing - but ensures you have less energy to spend if you do defeat the missile. Tests done imperfect as well (since I'm not going to spend a whole day on 1.2.2 :P ).

 

ACMI archive attached.

Crank_Test_ER.zip

[EtherealN]

GGTharos,could you pls give a diagramatical rep of a 'crank'

 

See below:

 

 

You launch, then you turn to place the target just within your scan zone to reduce closure.

[EtherealN]

I was trying to be nice and give the guy some credit for trying to help out. His tactics may not be bullet proof but his self taught ideas and willingness to help should be applauded.

 

Agreed, if he's self-taught he got further with BVR than I did before I got into training - way further. But this done not change the fact that when he instructs others to do something that is wrong, it needs to be corrected, and shown why it is erroneous. :)

[Couladin]

One thing. This works at long range, but at medium to short range, if you go slow you are helping the missile to do his job.

 

That's exactly the point, keep the enemy locked, that is the priority here. the crank is only used to further reduce closure rate and leave his missile with longer distance to travel. Yes, for purely evasive purposes a notch is better, but that means you loose target lock.

 

 

 

[quote name=Angel101

In my point of view, this other aspect works better in differences distances, also you are in better position to notch the missile or enemy plane, with less angle it will be more difficult.

 

regards.[/quote]

 

True, but then you can't shoot your own missile.

 

 

I've also added the radar cones, i hope i approximated them correctly.

[Couladin]

it needs to be corrected, and shown why it is erroneous. :)

 

Please do, i don't mind if my tactic is dismantled, i will edit that reply accordingly to say it's wrong, and will change my in-flight tactic too.

Just please SHOW, rather than just say it's wrong with generic statements such as "fly slow and you are dead".

 

Best thing, would be a track illustrating proper tactics.

 

Edit: Ah, just saw you made a reply with hard data, thanks, looking at it now.

[Couladin]

See below:

 

 

You launch, then you turn to place the target just within your scan zone to reduce closure.

 

Just what i've been saying.

 

Illustrated here:

 

 

 

 

Agreed, if he's self-taught he got further with BVR than I did before I got into training - way further.

Hehe, thanks, a compliment was the last thing i expected. Yes, i em 100% self-though. Not because i didn't want to join a wing, it's because i didn't find a wing that was both good and with open positions.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Siskin

[GGTharos]

Just please SHOW, rather than just say it's wrong with generic statements such as "fly slow and you are dead".

 

Okay, sure, some of us expect you to be a mind reader; but teaching this stuff takes time as well.

 

Already as told, speed=life. It's a very simple tenet that will get you out of a lot of trouble.

 

In your situation, you're giving up all your energy to keep the bandit in the crank. His missile doesn't need to do any extra work to get to you, and you don't have speed to separate or to perform a last ditch maneuver.

You're making yourself touch more controls (the brake) than necessary for all this stuff as well.

 

You're forming a bad habit that will bite you when you make a mistake and end up too close to the bandit.

 

Speed is life, and there is a very good reason why this is a combat aviation motto.

 

Best thing, would be a track illustrating proper tactics.

 

There are huge numbers of tactics, it's not possible to cover anything but a basic explanation in a track. This is exactly what we're discussing now, too, and as you can see it's being debated, though there should in fact be no debate. Exceptions to the rule are exceptions to the rule. It's very important to believe this part, even if you don't necessarily understand it yet. Understanding can come with practice some times.

[Exorcet]

How about this ?

Green is you.

Red: enemy missile when you are slow.

Blue: enemy missile when you are fast.

 

There is a problem with this diagram. If you are flying slower, the red missile have no reason to turn harder. As your velocity approaches zero, the missile path approaches a straight line. Even in this case, slowing down is increasing your probability of being hit. The diagram doesn't show it because it's drawn incorrectly.

 

The best diagram here is EtherealN's text combat results.

[Couladin]

Okay, sure, some of us expect you to be a mind reader; but teaching this stuff takes time as well.

 

Already as told, speed=life. It's a very simple tenet that will get you out of a lot of trouble.

 

In your situation, you're giving up all your energy to keep the bandit in the crank. His missile doesn't need to do any extra work to get to you, and you don't have speed to separate or to perform a last ditch maneuver.

You're making yourself touch more controls (the brake) than necessary for all this stuff as well.

 

You're forming a bad habit that will bite you when you make a mistake and end up too close to the bandit.

 

Speed is life, and there is a very good reason why this is a combat aviation motto.

 

 

 

There are huge numbers of tactics, it's not possible to cover anything but a basic explanation in a track. This is exactly what we're discussing now, too, and as you can see it's being debated, though there should in fact be no debate. Exceptions to the rule are exceptions to the rule. It's very important to believe this part, even if you don't necessarily understand it yet. Understanding can come with practice some times.

 

Nothing to dispute here, everything you say here makes sense.

 

Can you give a series of advice on how exactly to go at a head to head BVR engagement, like i did, but the proper way ? Assuming the bandit knows how to defeat a missile, but is just slightly slower than you at doing so.

[Couladin]

There is a problem with this diagram. If you are flying slower, the red missile have no reason to turn harder. As your velocity approaches zero, the missile path approaches a straight line.

 

You are right, my bad.

Here's a corrected diagram:

 

 

Looks to me like the red is still longer than the blue, so the issue remains the same.

[GGTharos]

A bandit could ditch your missile and be back at M1 (or never stop being at M1) and gain several km on you while you're floating around and splitting - some of this is because of missile issues, some has to do with being very quick with your tactics.

 

He could have a buddy (or other MP interloper) that you didn't notice who has now halved the distance and doing M1.2 without you knowing this.

 

The only real change you need to make is maintain your combat speed in the crank, and slice-back to get away. Dive harder if you want to accelerate faster, but don't split-S. Just do a sustained slice-back and vary the degree of the dive as necessary. Depending on your engagement you may want to just do a flat turn and not waste altitude, or you may want to bring the nose around harder and so you'll get a 40deg dive going as you turn.

 

You don't necessarisly have to retreat either. Maybe there's no missile to defeat - or maybe it'll be so out of energy that you can orthogonal roll it ( ... if you're not slow). In this case you can even keep your bandit on the gimbals and re-attack him very quickly.

 

Keep your eyes on the terrain where he is supposed to be. It's a better way to know where to point your nose than trying to play around with the radar.

 

Like I said, a lot of stuff to cover ... start with fighting visually and using the radar as a secondary device (ie. fly by terrain/landmarks) and following a simple process just like you did before for your attacks, just modify it to maintain combat speed and avoid split-S' unless you really need them.

[Couladin]

A bandit could ditch your missile and be back at M1 (or never stop being at M1) and gain several km on you while you're floating around and splitting - some of this is because of missile issues, some has to do with being very quick with your tactics.

 

He could have a buddy (or other MP interloper) that you didn't notice who has now halved the distance and doing M1.2 without you knowing this.

 

The only real change you need to make is maintain your combat speed in the crank, and slice-back to get away. Dive harder if you want to accelerate faster, but don't split-S. Just do a sustained slice-back and vary the degree of the dive as necessary. Depending on your engagement you may want to just do a flat turn and not waste altitude, or you may want to bring the nose around harder and so you'll get a 40deg dive going as you turn.

 

You don't necessarisly have to retreat either. Maybe there's no missile to defeat - or maybe it'll be so out of energy that you can orthogonal roll it ( ... if you're not slow). In this case you can even keep your bandit on the gimbals and re-attack him very quickly.

 

Keep your eyes on the terrain where he is supposed to be. It's a better way to know where to point your nose than trying to play around with the radar.

 

Like I said, a lot of stuff to cover ... start with fighting visually and using the radar as a secondary device (ie. fly by terrain/landmarks) and following a simple process just like you did before for your attacks, just modify it to maintain combat speed and avoid split-S' unless you really need them.

 

That is probably the most helpful advice i ever read. i'll modify my tactics according to this.

 

Self teaching is a pain. I'd love to fly with (or vs) an experienced pilot, and be able to dissect the tactics in tacview :>

 

Too bad it's so rare to actually find a wing with open positions.

 

If you're ever bored enough to check the ACMI tracks i posted, some feedback on what exactly i could have done better at different moments would be even more helpful.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Siskin

[arteedecco]

Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed feedback all! @Siskin, thanks for catalyzing such a good discussion and for working to articulate your methods.

 

Let's keep things civil and as @Siskin recommended steer away from inflammatory comments. The overall goal is to provide a good resource for those of us less versed in BVR tactics.

 

I wanted to throw in some thoughts on the "crank" topic.

 

@Siskin, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are saying that when nose-to-nose with the bandit (on the front-end of the engagement, no weapons fired), you use an indicated airspeed (IAS) below combat maneuvering speed (max performance / "cornering speed"), correct?

 

If I am correct in that understanding, you do that to reduce the closure rate... giving you more time to react, but primarily your goal is to give you more time from any launched, incoming missiles?

 

You combine this reduced IAS with offsetting via a "crank" maneuver, further reducing closure rate to the bandit, right? (or do you accelerate for the "crank"... I read it that you did not accelerate into the "crank" to combat speed, right?)

 

IF a missile is launched, you execute your Split-S to convert Potential Energy (PE) into Kinetic Energy (KE) and reversing course 180, still correct?

 

Now.. the others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the issue they have with this technique is that this requires you to accelerate, which is slow for a couple reasons.... a.) you have to accelerate (which takes time), but b.) at reduced airspeed your aircraft takes longer to maneuver and you cannot change direction as quickly as if you started at combat speed, thereby negating some/most/all of the "gains" you got by having a reduced initial airspeed.

 

So... let's say you have a combat speed of 425 knots in the F-15C.... if you "crank" to 60 degrees your velocity vector in the direction of the bandit drops to 212.5 knots (half), but... you still maintain your forward velocity of combat speed, meaning you can change direction at the most rapid rate possible for your aircraft.

 

Keeping things simple.... let's say bandit doesn't change direction significantly after you "crank" what is the difference in times to 20 nautical miles between the two aircraft, if the bandit also maintains 425, but trucks straight on in? For this argument, assume both aircraft gain radar lock at 50 nautical miles.

 

V1 = your velocity vector in the direction of the bandit

V2 = bandit velocity vector in your direction

Vc = closure velocity (Vca === option A, Vcb === option B)

* assume Indicated airspeed === True airspeed (no wind)

 

Option A, nobody "cranks":

Vca = V1 + V2 = 425 + 425 = 850 Knots

 

Option B, YOU "crank" immediately after establishing lock, but bandit does nothing:

Vcb = V1 + V2 = 212.5 + 425 = 637.7

 

 

The difference (%) between Option A and Option B is 75%. Now... the time to 20 nautical miles from 50 nautical miles is simply, Velocity = Distance / Time... so Time (T) = Distance (d) / Velocity (v):

 

Option A (Ta), with Vca of 850 Knots:

Ta = d / v = 30nm / 850 nautical miles per hour = 30 / 850 = 0.03539 hours = 2.1178 minutes (2m : 7s), or 127.058823529416 seconds

 

Option B (Tb), with Vcb of 637.7 Knots:

Tb = 30 / 637.5 = 0.047044 hours = 2.82264 minutes (2m : 49s), or 169.411764705876 seconds

 

Tb is 33% longer than Ta... in other words... if you "crank" you get 33% more time in the engagement... plus... your vector that is 90 degrees to the oncoming bandit is 368.06079660838645 knots.

 

That portion of your vector, which is 90 degrees to the direction of the oncoming aircraft is the big part here and what you want maximized... and why the recommendation is to be faster, rather than slower in this "cranked" situation.

 

If the enemy fires and you are going laterally (90 degrees to the shot and bandit) at 368 knots... additionally... you are already at your combat (max perf.) speed, no need to accelerate to it. If you were slower... you have increased your problems... a.) you have to accelerate, b.) you have a smaller differential between your velocity away from the missile and the missile velocity towards you (e.g. you have less time, the missile has more energy).

 

Someone smart please review my math / logic and correct me if/where I'm wrong. Sorry I don't have a diagram.

[GGTharos]

That is probably the most helpful advice i ever read. i'll modify my tactics according to this.

 

Self teaching is a pain. I'd love to fly with (or vs) an experienced pilot, and be able to dissect the tactics in tacview :>

 

... you've flown against me but you probably don't know that ... I know though.

 

But maybe you are getting the idea that this is not always possible. For example tacview won't tell you that when he can't see you he's maneuvering with respect to your current and predicted position with respect to terrain features he can see. Tacview won't tell you how to tell where 30 and 60 degs are in your FoV either, for example.

 

Also experienced pilots are one thing, pilots who do it better is another. FOr example you gave plenty of advice and might be considered experienced by some standard.

And although in theory I might know how to do some things better, I have a bunch of self-taught bad habits that get me killed a whole lot. Habits are very difficult to unlearn.

 

Too bad it's so rare to actually find a wing with open positions.

 

If you're ever bored enough to check the ACMI tracks i posted, some feedback on what exactly i could have done better at different moments would be even more helpful.

You can always go around and ask, there are people who repond well to things. Edited January 14, 2013 by GGTharos

[Exorcet]

You are right, my bad.

Here's a corrected diagram:

 

 

Looks to me like the red is still longer than the blue, so the issue remains the same.

 

But I bet you didn't draw those with a computer model of a missile in flight. The straighter the missile, the lower the drag, and the less it slows down, allowing it cover more distance is less time and be less sensitive to changes in target position. The opposite is true for a missile that needs to turn harder.

 

It's very non linear. Doubling you speed won't halve the missile's range, it might cut it to a quarter, or an eight.

[arteedecco]

I think that shows some of the basics of the notch, I would argue that the 'how to' portion is too stuck in the HuD/RWR though. When intending to notch, pick a terrain feature 90 deg from the direction of the offending radar, and point the nose that way. Don't stare at the RWR or HUD, you need to be looking towards the bandit.

 

Yeah, that's very good advice. I find that my SA is often terrible because I neglect to make mental pictures of the terrain around me, my current heading coming into the engagement, etc. Then when I have to beam... I am lost and have to keep referencing the RWR, which has lag, is heads-down, and bad to stare at if you're trying to control your craft AND look for bandit and/or smoke.

 

The other issue is.. the bandit maneuvers making your beaming / notching maneuver ... "dynamic", you have to adjust for his counter-maneuvers... usually to bring his radar to bear if you are turning.

 

BTW... another thought came to me about being at combat speed when in the "crank"... in this way... if you have to beam or notch... you can do it quick... reducing the opportunity for the bandit to see which way you turn (though it's probably somewhat obvious)... your radar track just drops... as opposed to if you are accelerating where your turn rate is slowly increasing in the turn... yeah... 60 degrees to 90 degrees is a short way to go, but I guess the more "instant" you can do it, the better!

[Couladin]

it seems you are saying that when nose-to-nose with the bandit (on the front-end of the engagement, no weapons fired), you use an indicated airspeed (IAS) below combat maneuvering speed (max performance / "cornering speed"), correct?

No, before weapons are fired, i go in at 24 thousand feet (just low enough to avoid a con-trail, but high, so that the missile will have more energy), and max speed, that means full afterburners. Now, what i'm about to say, is what i've been doing so far, now i need to digest the new information and see exactly what i change.

So, old way: Once i fire, i snap engines to idle, breaks on and crank. Then the missile has about 5 seconds to activation (not impact) breaks off, thrust to full. If a missile had been launched, split-S. If not, act depending on the target's actions. usually if he didn't fire a missile, at this point he's busy trying to defeat mine, so i go back straight toward him, making sure to keep 24 thousand feet altitude. Versus weak pilots by know they can't even paint me because i'm above their radar cone. Easy kill. However, the most common response i see is flying away to defeat missile. That puts me in a position to dive for airspeed and catch up for a kill.

 

If I am correct in that understanding, you do that to reduce the closure rate... giving you more time to react, but primarily your goal is to give you more time from any launched, incoming missiles?

No, the reduced IAS is after i launch, to reduce closure rate, but not to give me more time to react, but to have more miles between me and the bandits missile at the time that my own missile activates and i can safely break lock.

 

You combine this reduced IAS with offsetting via a "crank" maneuver, further reducing closure rate to the bandit, right?

Yes, the crank is meant to further reduce closure rate.

 

IF a missile is launched, you execute your Split-S to convert Potential Energy (PE) into Kinetic Energy (KE) and reversing course 180, still correct?

Yes, i do that after my own missile has activated, otherwise it looses track.

 

But I bet you didn't draw those with a computer model of a missile in flight. The straighter the missile, the lower the drag, and the less it slows down, allowing it cover more distance is less time and be less sensitive to changes in target position. The opposite is true for a missile that needs to turn harder.

 

It's very non linear. Doubling you speed won't halve the missile's range, it might cut it to a quarter, or an eight.

 

Good point, a proper simulator could answer all the questions, unfortunately i have yet to find one.

[Couladin]

@arteedecco i sugest you get tacview and check those 2 tracks that i posted, for clarifications. They exemplify pretty well my current (and aparently not so good) flying technique.

[arteedecco]

...

It's very non linear. Doubling you speed won't halve the missile's range, it might cut it to a quarter, or an eight.

 

Yep... maneuvering flight means increased induced drag, which goes up exponentially (link to equation). Plus... if missile motor is vectored... I'd imagine there would be some loss of thrust (in boost stage).... thereby reducing effective range further.

 

Like you said... it's not as simple as drawing two equally long lines, then curving one... the curved one (the one that has to curve further) will actually get shorter the more it curves.

 

Again... supporting the practice of being faster, being more survivable. yeah, it can seem counter-intuitive because part of your vector is still closing on the bandit and yes, if you are going faster overall... that portion of the vector pointed towards the bandit is also greater, but... that so is that lateral component... and when you're past 45 degrees off-boresight... well... that lateral velocity vector is greater than your forward vector.

 

Wish someone could post a quick vid and diagram of an "orthogonal roll".

 

I gather the orthogonal roll maneuver is really only useful if the missile is just about out of energy... but would love to hear more about how to execute it and in what situations.

[arteedecco]

They exemplify pretty well my current (and aparently not so good) flying technique.

 

You and me both! ;) (and will-do on the Tracview)... by the way... Tracview is really only useful in Single Player... multiplayer drops packets and missiles end up all over the place... or so I thought???

 

PM me if you want to try some of it out... I would love to try it out against someone else who has the concepts.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, that's very good advice. I find that my SA is often terrible because I neglect to make mental pictures of the terrain around me, my current heading coming into the engagement, etc. Then when I have to beam... I am lost and have to keep referencing the RWR, which has lag, is heads-down, and bad to stare at if you're trying to control your craft AND look for bandit and/or smoke.

 

The advice here is 'take a mental picture of your instruments, and watch the terrain' ... not the other way around :)

 

The other issue is.. the bandit maneuvers making your beaming / notching maneuver ... "dynamic", you have to adjust for his counter-maneuvers... usually to bring his radar to bear if you are turning.

 

Yes, but see you can very accurately turn your plane by using terrain. It takes work and getting used to, and probably a bunch of specific knowledge.

 

BTW... another thought came to me about being at combat speed when in the "crank"... in this way... if you have to beam or notch... you can do it quick... reducing the opportunity for the bandit to see which way you turn (though it's probably somewhat obvious)... your radar track just drops... as opposed to if you are accelerating where your turn rate is slowly increasing in the turn... yeah... 60 degrees to 90 degrees is a short way to go, but I guess the more "instant" you can do it, the better!

 

Yep ... and that 30deg is right on the inside lip of your canopy reail arc on most of the fc planes! How about that! :) You just look at the terrain where the round canopy rail meets the bottom canopy rail, righ on that inside corner, point the nose there, and then look towards the bandit. Adjust the notch from there as necessary, you will only need small adjustments.

 

If you can't be certain that you are on a good notch heading, fly an S around the notch while dropping chaff, and this way you will at least go through the notch multiple times and hopefuly decoy any radar missile coming at you.

[Couladin]

You and me both! ;) (and will-do on the Tracview)... by the way... Tracview is really only useful in Single Player... multiplayer drops packets and missiles end up all over the place... or so I thought???

 

PM me if you want to try some of it out... I would love to try it out against someone else who has the concepts.

 

Yes, i noticed things go a bit weird in tacview tracks from DCS World, but FC2 was fine, and the tracks are made in FC2.

[theChris]

when cranking should i be going down and up as well as side to side?

[EtherealN]

Well Siskin, consider this: what if you DON'T slow down after launch?

 

In the timeframe you describe, you lose nothing. But you keep your ability to use energy to defeat threats. You also keep your ability to stay high - that is, to maintain Potential Energy. As shown: you've lost nothing, but gained a lot of things, and also as shown - your speed does nothing to change the thread's closure if it exists; but having speed ensures you have greater resources to combat said threat, if it exists.

 

Another point to recall is that jet engines are not rockets. They use air, and thus going below certain speeds means your engines will be less effective. This is the same thing as how your engines are less effective at altitude: up high, less air, less WHOOOMPF from your F100s - and thus, if you find yourself in trouble... less ability to do something about it.