Skall Posted September 28, 2013 Posted September 28, 2013 Hi everyone, Been spending some time with the eagle learning the basics of employing weapons and I noticed inconsistencies with the manual so I figured I'd ask here. Be warned that a lot of this is based on assumptions after conducting several tests. Please call me out on any incorrect assumptions I'm making. On the left side of the screenshot I just fired a 120C at a helpless IL-78. The underlined areas are identical except for one having an M and the other having a T. After several tests I came to the conclusion that the first number is the number of seconds until the missile's seeker takes over and no longer requires our help getting to the target. The second number is total number of seconds until impact. On the right side of the screenshot is the same missile 5 seconds later. The "M 0 20" lets us know the missile's seeker is active and the 20 is the seconds to impact. The right side of the HUD changes format but essentially says the same thing: seconds to impact. With these assumptions in mind, here are my questions: 1. Why is this information duplicated on the HUD? When will "M X X" be different than "T X X"? 2. Once the seeker goes active, why show the "MXSEC" when this is the same thing as "M 0 X"? 3. Side question: when I bug a bandit on my radar, my HUD stops showing me G loads and the line is instead replaced with TM .X where X remains constant no matter what I've tried. What does this mean? I think it's incredibly annoying to have my G load disappear in such a critical stage of flight, such as a BVR joust. 4. Very unrelated but still related to weapons: It appears an AIM-9 can be radar assisted to target and I can get a lock at ~10nm away but this missile always limps out if not shot within 2-3nm of the target. What's the value in radar-assisting this missile from so far away if it can never make the distance?
GGTharos Posted September 28, 2013 Posted September 28, 2013 1. Why is this information duplicated on the HUD? When will "M X X" be different than "T X X"? Because it is of interest to the pilot. All flying is highly visual, and having this information on the HUD is useful. 2. Once the seeker goes active, why show the "MXSEC" when this is the same thing as "M 0 X"? I don't know, probably because the real aircraft does, but don't quote me on that ... I don't have the RL manual right in front of me. 3. Side question: when I bug a bandit on my radar, my HUD stops showing me G loads and the line is instead replaced with TM .X where X remains constant no matter what I've tried. What does this mean? I think it's incredibly annoying to have my G load disappear in such a critical stage of flight, such as a BVR joust. I don't know why you'd want to see your g-load instead of target mach. G-loads are important in both BFM and BVR, but you're more likely to be wanting to know and looking at other things. More to the point here, a real pilot will feel the g's. In the flight sims, you just need to know speed+rate or bank angle, the latter directly translates to g's. It's all about practice. 4. Very unrelated but still related to weapons: It appears an AIM-9 can be radar assisted to target and I can get a lock at ~10nm away but this missile always limps out if not shot within 2-3nm of the target. What's the value in radar-assisting this missile from so far away if it can never make the distance? If your target happened to be an after-burning MiG-25, you could use the entire kinetic range of the missile. Typically heat seekers are limited by their seeker's ability to lock onto a target - likewise, if a target happens to provide the missile with a good signal outside of launch range, what's problem? I don't understand the question - why would you not lock the missile onto the target when commanded to do so? The system just does what you tell it to - when you push that button, it locks onto the target and slaves the weapon system to it. It's up to you to verify that your target is in parameters for launch. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Skall Posted September 28, 2013 Author Posted September 28, 2013 Thanks for posting, GGTharos. I've been pouring over several of your older posts on BVR combat and must admit a lot of it is still over my head though I'm learning slowly. Last night was my first time attempting A2A vs the AI on "good" difficulty (I know, try not to laugh :cry:) and was getting killed every time on a 1v1 vs a Mig-29 because I just got within range, fired and prayed. After reading several of your posts and applying some of the principles (the concept of poles, cranking, etc.) I've started being able to almost consistently beat it :D. Back to the original post, I just wanted to verify that "M X X" and "T X X" where identical and would never be different. If the designers found it important enough to duplicate it, then so be it. Going on to G-loads, I've encountered the concept of corner velocity and all that jazz and (I'm probably wrong here) apparently ~4Gs at Mach 0.9ish gives a good rate of turn without losing speed. I'm starting to get a feel for what that feels like on my stick but, as a noob, it's nice to get concrete confirmation. I did not know the TM stood for Target Mach which now makes sense as to why it was always constant: the IL-78s I was practicing against where on a fixed flight plan so their speed was constant. For the AIM-9 in radar, I was just curious if there was a feasible way to launch it at the 8-10nm range with a radar lock and I just wasn't doing things properly. Also, if I'm radar assisting the AIM-9 all the way through, does it become more resilient to flares or is it still about the same as without radar assistance? Thanks again for your answers. I shall heed your advice :worthy:
GGTharos Posted September 28, 2013 Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) I the real aircraft, IIRC, you get 3 indications ... A (Active, A-Pole), M (MPRF, high-grade seeker track), T (Termination/Impact). Well, depends on which year, but later ones have those three. The missile gets to HPRF range first. At that point it's still not having a high quality track, but it's dangerous and you can let it go. At MPRF range, it doesn't need you (although there are always benefits to continuing guidance, as the missile can use the datalink to sort out multiple contacts and hit exactly the intended one, help itself against ECM, CMs, or a plane trying to notch it, etc). Then there's T, at the end of which you should see a fireball. As you know, We only get M and T, and they're not even always accurate - the further your target and the more it maneuvers, the more time after T=0 it takes for the missile to accomplish its task. Regarding g-loads, just back a speed sustaining turn or slice. This will give you max sustained g at your altitude. If you are a very high altitude, low speed or both, you might want to look at slicebacks to speed up your turn. The radar only slaves the AIM-9M seeker to the target while the missile is on the pylon. The missile is fully autonomous after it leaves the rail, so radar does not affect its ECCM/CM rejections. You can launch at a 10nm target if it's HOT and at high altitude - you need the high altitude for the range, the heat for tracking :) Sorry for the short answers, got to head out - glad to be of help :) Edited September 28, 2013 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Skall Posted September 28, 2013 Author Posted September 28, 2013 I the real aircraft, IIRC, you get 3 indications ... A (Active, A-Pole), M (MPRF, high-grade seeker track), T (Termination/Impact). Well, depends on which year, but later ones have those three. The missile gets to HPRF range first. At that point it's still not having a high quality track, but it's dangerous and you can let it go. At MPRF range, it doesn't need you (although there are always benefits to continuing guidance, as the missile can use the datalink to sort out multiple contacts and hit exactly the intended one, help itself against ECM, CMs, or a plane trying to notch it, etc). Then there's T, at the end of which you should see a fireball. As you know, We only get M and T, and they're not even always accurate - the further your target and the more it maneuvers, the more time after T=0 it takes for the missile to accomplish its task. Regarding g-loads, just back a speed sustaining turn or slice. This will give you max sustained g at your altitude. If you are a very high altitude, low speed or both, you might want to look at slicebacks to speed up your turn. The radar only slaves the AIM-9M seeker to the target while the missile is on the pylon. The missile is fully autonomous after it leaves the rail, so radar does not affect its ECCM/CM rejections. You can launch at a 10nm target if it's HOT and at high altitude - you need the high altitude for the range, the heat for tracking :) Sorry for the short answers, got to head out - glad to be of help :) Great response as usual. Makes sense to just pull for the given altitude/speed that will not make you lose speed. Hadn't heard the term sliceback so I just looked it up. The knowledge grows a smidgeon at a time.
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