Javers

I mean am I seeing things or does this document also say the F-16C STR is only 16? Considering the whole point of that discussion was a claim of the JF-17 STR over-performing against the F-16 STR does that not automatically invalidate this document as evidence? lol Because I’m not seeing how you can logically say the JF-17 part of this document is accurate but ignore the F-16C sitting in the exact same document with a lower STR. Last I checked the F-16C is capable of a better STR, but like you said we don’t know the conditions for the data. Just looking at the F-16C STR tells me these probably aren’t normal conditions, unless it’s some kind of propaganda. But if it were actually propaganda (which I doubt it is) I’d have to question why they still gave the Gripen those numbers considering it’s just as much a competitor to the JF-17 as the F-16. Unless there’s something I’m misunderstanding about this document then yeah, no shot.

Yeah exactly, those two aircraft have a similar issue. It can especially make things difficult in the MiG-29, but the Flanker can deal with it a bit better in my experience. Like I said earlier I think this is a result of there not being many JF-17 pilots relative to other aircraft, especially in BFM. So, when people run into a good Jeff pilot in BFM it's typically their first time experiencing what the aircraft is actually capable of and the shock in combination with the ignorance creates the illusion that it's a lot more effective than it is. Not saying it isn't effective. It's a very capable BFM fighter if you know what you're doing, but part of that also requires that certain opponents do not entirely know what they're doing against it. It has a weakness so easily exploitable once you've acquired the knowledge that I think placing it directly behind the F/A-18 in BFM is a bit too far. I haven't even talked about the insane amount of lead required to hit with its gun. If it ever got an engine upgrade though it would probably be far more dangerous. I've probably exposed too much. I should delete all of this.

I think you may have misunderstood me a bit on this, and I figured some people would because it’s a pretty unique problem to this aircraft so that’s okay, but I could be wrong. I’m saying that past a certain speed the turn rate in the JF-17 is so restricted relative to certain planes that these other planes can out rate it by simply flying around at that exact same speed or higher. It’s that in combination with its slow acceleration that is an exploitable problem. There have been multiple instances where I’ve noticed the guy out in front of me gets scared and starts speeding up and as I pursue (I have no choice not to pursue and the reasons why should become clear later) we hit a point where I start locking up and he starts turning inside of my circle while extending away from me at the exact same time. I’m saying that he actually won’t need to slow down to get behind me. If he’s turning inside my circle while flying at a higher speed that essentially means that if I maintain my speed trying to keep up with him and he maintains that high speed turn he will inevitably rate around behind me. So if you imagine us both flying on the deck in this situation that means I have two options. One of them is to slow down to the low 400-320 knots range so that I can turn again, but doing that gives the other guy a massive energy advantage in a plane that already has a significant power advantage over my JF-17. So now he can just take the vertical and if he knows how to smartly exploit the fact that I can’t regain energy quickly, not taking any unnecessary risks, then he can create a situation where he’s constantly taking positions that force me into a struggle for energy for the rest of the fight until he kills me because every defensive maneuver I make in response will cost me energy. My other option would be to take the vertical myself, but remember my opponent is at an equal or higher energy state as I’m doing this, while also being in a more powerful plane. So if he also takes the vertical, or even extends for more energy prior, then he’s once again going to be in a higher energy state than I am. If he knows how to exploit that in the same way I described above then the same exact situation plays out. It’ll take a bit longer because the initial energy difference won’t be as wide, but barring pilot error it’ll eventually produce the same result. But like I said I’ve yet to see a pilot purposely exploit this in a fight, because I don’t think they understand what’s happening to the Jeff. I think they think that I’m intentionally not pulling as hard as I can in the turn to follow them. Sometimes they’ll take the vertical and accidentally stumble on that path to draining my energy as described above, but this is entirely out of BFM instinct. They don’t actually recognize what caused the situation to happen. I know they don’t because they never attempt to force the situation again. I absolutely do not strictly fly the corner speed of the Jeff in BFM, but there’s a time and a place for everything. Especially in a plane that can not accelerate and recover quickly.

Well if you know what you’re doing in the F-15C or the F-14 you can give the JF-17 a hard time as well. There’s a point where both of these aircraft can keep lifting their nose up over the top while the Jeff can’t possibly follow and if you know how to exploit this against it it’s difficult for the Jeff to win. The Jeff’s acceleration is very exploitable. Even while clean the Jeff struggles accelerating out of low speed relative to other planes, and it’s not good at sustaining a vertical fight. The Mirage is capable of utilizing this same advantage against it, but the Jeff has a pretty significant rate advantage over the Mirage (on top of being able to mimic a lot of its maneuvers) so unless the Jeff pilot makes a major mistake it’s harder to consistently pull them into that situation compared to being in the Eagle or the Cat. EDIT: In my experience flying the Jeff in BFM a lot of pilots seem to be caught off guard by its low speed nose authority and overlook or greatly overestimate its engine power. So they don’t think to take advantage of that weakness. It can pretend to be an F-18 but it can’t sustain it for as long as the F-18. It’s like an F-16/F-18 hybrid or imo more accurately an F-16/Mirage hybrid. It can mimic those planes, but don’t be fooled, it can’t recover as quickly as any of them. Almost forgot, there’s another weakness that many people who don’t fly the JF-17 don’t realize. At around like 450+ knots the G-limiter severely hinders its turning capability and I find myself unable to keep up in a chase with most planes turning at these same speeds. I’ve yet to run into a pilot purposely exploiting this against me though, I think most just assume I’m intentionally sitting in deep lag pursuit. Turning off the FCS can help a little at these speeds but not much for some reason. All these planes would have to do is continue to threaten rating around me past these speeds and I would either have to slow down or take the vertical which opens up the opportunity for them to start taking advantage of that power/acceleration disadvantage I described earlier. I feel like there’s a lot of ignorance surrounding the JF-17 capabilities because a lot of people simply don’t fly the plane.