Terminator357

Yes. I could also get out my Fluke and check the potentiometers and any resistors on the face of the PCB, but I'm not going to. My job was to pay for the unit. WinWing's job was to give me one worth the money they demanded for it. I did mine, they didn't do theirs. Winwing is going to have to put me on their payroll if they expect me to diagnose and repair their product. Unfortunately, they're the only ones who've received any $$ up to this point so me doing anything other than tossing it in the trash is unlikely. A Saitek X52 just shouldn't outlast a HOTAS that's 6 years newer and costs 500 bucks more than it. I'd be embarrassed by that if I was winwing....but I'm not winwing, so there ya go

Not trying to hijack the OP's thread, but you might want to read this:

A few pics of the disassembled throttle. I've inspected every centimeter of it under a magnifying glass. There are no loose connections, no broken or failed solder joints, no obvious burns or discolorations on the main PCB. The Hall sensors weren't loose or disconnected and the PCBs for them have no evidence of problems either. In short, there is nothing wrong with this throttle that can be observed visually. The problem is definitely a failed electronic component. The PCBs look cheaply made and WinWing uses hot glue to secure loose wires to them. This says a lot about how poorly these units are manufactured. You can't tell if a micro chip has failed by looking at it, but given the reputation of Chinese consumer electronics one has to be concerned that the chipsets they're using are cheap Chinese knock offs of existing consumer market chipsets(???) I hate to say this, but WinWing appears to be just another example of poorly built Chinese junk being dumped on the world, except this time they're charging top dollar for their junk. It's a shame because I absolutely love the flight sim experience their controllers provide. Of course, if the controller doesn't work to begin with then you're not gonna be doing *any* flying, let alone flying with top quality gear. WinWing has the potential to be the industry king of game controllers, but it will never realize that potential. That's because it can't (won't?) break itself free from the stigma that has dogged Chinese manufactured goods for decades. That is, they're complete crap. I have a Thrustmaster FCS Mk1 flight stick (look it up) that's over 15 years old. It was one of the very first HOTAS style controllers you could buy for a flight sim. That stick is ancient, but it still works to this day. Contrast that with the WinWing, one of the most expensive controllers you can find on the market, broken and unusable after 1 short year. Don't waste your hard earned dollars on WinWing products. The main PCB. Hot glued. No signs of damaged solder or connections, and no obvious signs of PCB burns or discoloration: The Hall sensor PCB, no obvious signs of failure. Hall sensors securely connected, no loose wires. Hot glue...plenty of hot glue: What your Orion Throttle will eventually look like if you buy one:

Will definitely be taking this thing apart, maybe it's just a loose wire or magnet. Broken wires are one thing, broken electronics are another given the later rarely provide obvious external signs that they've failed. Will post what I find, but the 1 year old WinWing is basically a $600 brick right now. Might still be useful for a glider plane, but I don't think DCS has any of those. Even if it did, I can't imagine the guns on it would be anywhere near as fun as the one on the A10

Happy to fix it myself, but that would require WinWing sending me the [board, sensor, connector...whatever] that failed. So far, all they've offered is to sell me a new base.

In April of 2022 I purchased the F16 Throttle and Stick. I gave the setup a great review in this forum. Link here: It's been almost exactly one year since I made that purchase so I thought I'd come back and offer some insights to anyone considering buying a new WinWing HOTAS for themselves. SimAppPro is still awful software, but none of us buy WinWing products for the software, so I'll focus on the hardware. Both the stick and throttle still feel solid and smooth, and the buttons continue to function with very positive 'clicks'. The overall flight sim experience with these units is outstanding. But that's where the good things about WinWing stop. 2 weeks after the original 1 year warranty ended, the throttle failed. I worked with WinWing's customer service to confirm that the unit's axis for throttle control is completely dead. All of the buttons, sliders, and switches still work, but the throttle itself does not. Given that WinWing is a Chinese company and shipping goods back and forth is time consuming and expensive, I fully expected that they'd probably just mail me a part or two and ask me to fix it myself, which I would have been happy to do. But that is not how WinWing chose to handle it. Instead, they responded with this: "I have checked that your order has been over one year, in other words, your order is not covered by the warranty, so you need to pay the round-trip freight and maintenance costs. It's not very cheap. Maybe you can buy a new throttle base. It's up to you." Normally, you'd expect a video game controller that costs this much money to last many years. Since the unit failed just 2 weeks after the end of the original one year warranty, I asked them to reconsider. That request got shot-down (pun intended) The F16 Throttle replaced an old Saitek X52 that I'd used without problems for almost 6 years prior to getting the WinWing. I recently plugged the X52 back in and yep, it still works. The Saitek HOTAS cost me less than $125 and feels cheaply constructed. The WinWing HOTAS cost me way over $600 and feels well constructed. If we're being honest, the WinWing product just looks better too. WinWing is eye-candy for your flight sim setup, whereas the Saitek just looks like a toy. It's ironic that the uber-expensive WinWing failed while the uber-cheap Saitek still functions flawlessly. Eye-candy is great to look at, but if I actually want to *fly* the planes I purchase in DCS, I need a throttle that works... DCS is not a cheap game to play. Most of us invest a lot of time and money into our gear and planes. Aside from a strong PC, your controllers are the single most important element to having a good flight sim experience. A good experience is ultimately how you'll determine if the money you spend on DCS is worth it, or isn't. In the US, Chinese goods have always had a reputation of being poorly designed, poorly made, and poorly supported. WinWing was one of those companies that seemed to be an exception to that. I won't go so far as to say the WinWing HOTAS is poorly designed...But poorly made? Poorly supported? Yes, it does appear to be those things. Think twice before you invest in a WinWing HOTAS. Some of these setups cost well over $1000. In one year's time, do you want to have to repeat the purchase because your original one failed? If you're going to spend this much money on a controller, strongly consider Virpil or CH or TM as alternatives...If you want to save the expense all together, just get a Saitek. Odds are that it'll still be working after many years. But even if it isn't, replacing it will cost you a heckuva lot less than replacing the WinWing will. This really cool looking F16 throttle on my desk is basically a $600 paper weight now. Keep that in mind as you contemplate which HOTAS company to give your hard earned dollars to

JoyToKey turned out to a be a good solution. Thx for the suggestion...Highly recommend it to others who have similar concerns about simappro.

Yep, v2. If I put it together right (I think I did) then two of the mount holes are still useable, two are covered. You can fudge it by using the screw base of the suction cups in place of one of the bolts that screw the frame to the base. That'll put four suction on your gaming surface, the two you fudge will be offset toward the center of the base by an inch or so from where the normal mounting holes are. It's hard to explain but you'll see what I mean when you start fiddling with it. Only works if you plan on using the suction cups. If you want to screw it down on all four corners with hardware, you'll have to get creative for two of them. A screw down clamp might do the trick. There are two aluminum feet that extend a couple of inches out from the mounting frame, a surface clamp could grab them easily.

Tried it but it didn't really accomplish what I was looking for. Perhaps because I'm not playing in VR(?) I move around in my chair a lot when I play and sometimes my head tracker (grassmonkey) doesn't recenter my view well depending on where my head is. A quick click of Num5 hotkeys the HT software to recenter itself. Being able to set a joystick button to output a simple [Num5] which the game sees as "Center View" and the HT software sees as "Recenter HT" recenters both with one button click. It's pretty helpful, like when I'm lining up a CCRP bomb and the impact point lines are all wonky because I'm slouching in my chair Right now, the stick just outputs "Button_xxx", I need it to output "Num5". I might just go for the joytokey option. Looks easier than trying to make simappro or dcs do it.

Hey, great tip. I'll give it a try and report back. Gracias, senoire

Thanks for sharing that. I think the SimAp software tries to do something similar with its virtual device settings, I just couldn't get them to work I've avoided installing another app up to this point, but the inability to recenter my head tracker or perform multiple view inputs is annoying me so I may have to do it anyway.

K, I gotta be honest with you all. I'm probably not as much a realism kind of player as I am a for-fun player. Haven't even tried to midair refuel yet, so as a flyer I might not be a great resource, but: My old Saitek was really loose feeling. It wobbled all around center and flopped back n forth a bit like you describe. When I F2 camera myself the plane would be flying straight, but the wobble was noticeable. Anyway, the spring tension on the WW is much stronger and the center detent is more positive feeling to me so I don't experience difficulty with it centering itself. I don't have my TM anymore to compare it to, but it's much firmer than the Saitek. Long story short- when you F2 cam my flying now, it's steady as a rock. My flying didn't really improve, I think the stick just stays on center a lot better than my old one. For real precise flying like midair refueling, it'd probably limit your fine inputs. I haven't tried, but I've read some posts on the forum from guys who say that it does exactly that.

TLDR....Get a WinWing if you can! (their software sucks really bad tho) Got my F16EX throttle and stick a few days ago. Thought I'd share a few observations since these things aren't cheap and most peeps have to put a lot of thought into spending this much cash on a game controller. background: Original stick was an X52 HOTAS. I've owned TM and CH products as well. No Virpils, but I've used a few on other people's PCs. I'm not going to waste your time talking about the quality of the gear itself. Design, construction, and utility are unrivaled. Seriously, Winwing controllers are for big-boys, these things are simply the best you can buy. All the stuff you read online about their build quality is true. If you want physical details, there are a lot of good reviews out there already. So I'm just going to deal with the practicalities of using one these things. First...they're really heavy. You are going to *need* a very solid gaming surface. I normally use a slide out keyboard tray to hold my X52 setup. Works great...But there's no way this tray will hold the weight of these controllers. I suspect most slide-out trays would have similar problems. In my case, I needed to wedge two aluminum struts under the tray to give it adequate support. Because of that weight, there is a lot of moving mass to them. The stick is heavy (but very smooth) and requires a good amount of force to move. The throttle has quite a bit of mass in the handle so as you actuate the idle and AB detents you put a lot of sideways pressure on the whole unit. This means that even though they're heavy units, they're still going to move around on your desk when you use them....Enter the suction cups. These things are the real deal. They grip really well for suction cups. Winwing sends these 'anti-slip' pads you can stick to the bottom of the controllers instead of the suction cups, but they are useless. There's no way those things are going to stop these units from moving around. Having said all of that, the controllers really do need to be screwed to a solid surface rather than relying on the cups. In the case of the F16 Throttle, the frame for the handle detents makes using two of the suction cups very difficult. You can do it, but the current assembly instructions don't tell you how. Even after you get all four suction cups installed, it'll still be a little 'tippy' when using the idle/AB detents. In my case, I used the afore mentioned struts to stabilize my keyboard tray, the suction cups to stabilize the base, and then wedged the front edge of the throttle base against the edge of my desk where it meets the keyboard tray. Without screwing it down, that's what it takes to stabilize the throttle base in a setting like mine All in all, if you have the right gaming set up to handle the mass of these things, they will be the best controllers you ever owned. K, now for the not so good stuff....There isn't much, but the little bit that is bad, is really bad....SimApPro (their programming app) is pretty darn awful. It looks good, and the calibration section of it is very good, but everything else about is, well, not so good. The most glaring issue is the difficulty in programming keystrokes. Every other device I've ever owned had a software tool that was at least marginally useful for adding keystrokes. The X52 is a great example. I could not get SimApPro to record a single keystroke. I spent hours trying too...I'm willing to admit that it could be user error, but apps like this should behave more intuitive, or at least have very precise documentation so that a user can figure out what they are doing wrong. Neither of these things are true for SimApPro. There's a method for creating virtual devices that (I think) is supposed to allow you to program key strokes directly to the throttle and stick, but all it did for me was add 6 "virtual devises" to SimApPro's list of devices, without actually letting me edit keystrokes for any of them...Ultimately, the controller setup tool in DCS is suitable for almost all of my needs, so this isn't a crippling defect for the Winwing products. But there are legit situations where being able to program a macro or keystroke that DCS doesn't provide for should be doable...like making a single button click to both Unzoom and Recenter my view when I'm looking out of the cockpit. Another is having a thumbstick configured for mouse emulation, or at least letting us configured one of them (there are two on the F16 setup) for that should we want it. X52's software is super useful in these situations. The combination of the DCS presets and macro-enabled controller made just about any key combo possible. SimApPro is the only dog in the WinWing line of products. It's just not up to the same quality standard that their hardware is. That's most apparent when you side-by-side it with (very old) joystick software like the X52's. If Saitek can do it, then WinWing can too. If I was WinWing I'd spend some time working on my software product. Their hardware is basically 'perfected', time to make the software that supports it just as good. So for having said all of that, would I recommend a WinWing? #ell yes I would. You probably won't even notice the software issue if you're the kind of player that already configures everything thru DCS. The vastly better 'feel' of the joystick alone is worth every penny you pay over and above a mid-range HOTAS like a Saitek or TM(1600). Not exaggerating here, my flying instantly improved in the A10 and the only thing I changed was the controllers. That's the difference between a 'toy' (Saitek) and a real 'controller' (WinWing)

Arrived 5 days from shipped to delivered, all 4 boxes came together. Really good service by Winwing, IMO. Helps that I'm in a major Pac coast city so it's a direct flight from China to here and then just a short ride in a truck to my door. But yeah, speedy service by Winwing after a looong wait for the gear to become available. Pretty stoked here...Nobody bother me for like a week, plz. Ima be busy blasting $#it in an A10

March 10th...Not sure how long Pre Order had been available at that point but I'd been watching the winwing page pretty closely so it couldn't have been very long. A few days? Hours maybe?

Patience is a virtue Just got my notice that a F16 stick is shipping my way...thanks for the follow-through, Winwing!

+1 Thanks for the pre-order option! Just set myself up for a new F16EX rig...Can't wait to get it.

@cfragDude!!!! That was it! I don't have a 1200p vertical setting available but I do have 1080. Switched the monitor and game both to 1920x1080 and the buttons appeared. The one thing I hadn't done yet was switch PC and game both to a 1080 res setting....Doh! [slaps forehead] Ok, there's one for the Trains knowledge base: User error does indeed cause them to stop working : ) Mucho Gracias, cfrag

Yeah, I'm tracking right with you guys. Totally thinking it's a resolution/screen space thing but no amount of changing it via the pc or DCS seems to matter. @cfragMonitor is 32", plenty big enuf. Game is currently set at 1366x768, same resolution as my monitor's default setting. @dark_wood Yes, full screen. I tried making the game window bigger/smaller via monitor settings to see if the buttons would uncover themselves, but they didn't. Appreciate the feedback....Maybe if I try another monitor(?) I dunno, this thing is really bugging me : )

Disabled it, restarted the app, still no joy. Thanks for the suggestion tho

In case it matters: i7 CPU @ 4.2Ghz, 32 GB Ram, Nvidia 1070 GPU. Running latest version of DCS 'Stable' with the A10cII. Standalone, not Steam. I'm new to DCS but not new to flight sims and mission editors in general. I can't get trains to show up in my custom missions. It's basically the same problem with trains noted elsewhere in this forum...except it's not. Here's what's going on: I have a custom mission I use to practice A/G stuff. I recently placed a train on it (Caucasus map) and noticed that in-game the train never appears. Did my homework (mostly here) and discovered I needed to add cars to it thru the 'Wagons' tab in the Mission Editor...That's where the problem comes in: I cannot use that tab. Take a look at the screen cap I posted...You'll notice the Wagon tab, along with the Loadout, Waypoints, and others, is way down at the bottom right corner of the ME UI. This isn't a huge problem for the other tabs, but it makes the Wagons tab useless. As the pic shows the only 'Wagons' button the UI lets me see is [Delete]. There should be [Add] and [Edit] buttons available along with a drop-down menu to select train car types. I'm sure they're there, it's just that the UI layout is so wonky they're hidden and unclickable. There are no options or tools to expand this window or scroll down the page to view the rest of the Wagon Tab buttons. Now look at the main UI buttons running along the left hand side: Notice how in the upper left corner of the pic the three buttons in the "MAP" menu are sitting in their own column next to the rest of the buttons. After looking at a lot of screen caps from other users I think these buttons should be in the same column that the others are. So, there's something weird going on with the ME UI and it prevents me from using Trains. I'm totally baffled by it. Here's what I've tried so far: - Close and restart the ME, same with DCS. Reboot the pc - Make new missions (using different regions and units) - Click on every possible part of the UI trying to find a way to scroll the Wagon Tab down or expand the window it's in, up. - every available monitor resolution setting - every available in-game resolution setting - change every ME option and setting Regardless of what I do, the UI won't let me get to those buttons. Everything else about the ME seems to work fine. I can create missions, then fly them and blow up tanks, trucks, and SAMs all day long, but I'd kinda like to practice some GAU runs on trains. Any thoughts or suggestions from the ME veterans around here? Thanks!