Tasky

It seems you can't even get a Virpil either, as they're not expected in stock until Feb/March next year... !!

But why, given Virpil seem to be doing so well with theirs. I'm thinking their discontinuation in 2004, right when the Chinook and Kiowa were about to be released, might have been a factor?

Had I been into DCS back then, I'd have bought one in a heartbeat. As is, within a month of me deciding I wanted one, they discontinued 'em. Now, mere interest is all we have until they're made available again, or they do something better. Can't commit to something that doesn't exist... although a company like this might be able to pull off non-refundable pre-order deposits, say £40, to properly gauge interest. Better than outright pre-orders that can be cancelled, or crowdfunding that can be refunded - People put their money where their mouth is, and WW get a modicum of security if those ordering try to wig out.

It's worth a try - Comments on their social media, YouTube vids, anywhere they might see it...

But if we show enough interest.....?

If enough people badger them about making some, perhaps they'd listen?

OK, how about this angle... What is it about the four brands I mentioned that makes them so unworthy of consideration?

It's kinda like a car seat, mounted to an old industrial 4-legged bandsaw frame so it can slide on the runners. The footprint, angle of the legs and the stretchers mean I can't fit any floor-standing kit, but I can mount pretty much any thing to the baseplate itself - This sits somewhere between normal floorplate height and where a Monstertech baseplate would be, hence a chair-mount being the closest match. I could easily do away with the upright armatures of either the PFT or MFS and just mount those directly to my baseplate. Don't I know it - I have their HOTAS desk mounts already!! The faff with the tension seems to be the biggest factor in introducing unwanted flex or slop. Many reviewers complained that getting it tight enough to prevent it dropping and removing the slop resulted in quite uneven lift pressure, stiction or outright flex... and that it wouldn't stay fixed for more than a couple of weeks. I did have my heart set on the WinWing already, but the barstewards discontinued it right before I placed my order. The shorter lever would have been great for the Gazelle, too... So which ones are these 'built for commercial'?

The chair mount is not through choice. But what kit (other than Virpil, obv) would you say is of high standard... even if the price is high? I was specifically asking about MFS and PFT because there haven't been that many reviews in the past 4-6 years...

I'm not interested in Virpil. I don't like their switches, I don't like their software, I don't like their designs, and I've seen enough reviews that imply they don't meet my expectations.

The concerning ones were usually post-release reviews (Noobifier, for example) and/or just new customers unboxing and showing off. Written complaints are more user comments on various sim forums around the web. Most videos show a slight L-R wobble at the head end... but it's when you see them lift the lever say 5" and when they let go it drops back down a good 3" from the amount of flex... It's not supposed to be like that, surely? This is more about the flexion when moving the collective arm itself, although even some that look well mounted to Monstertech kit still seem to wobble at the head end. Most of the vids were just from quick searches on YouTube, but I do recall Rotor-Sims being one. He has a fabulous H145 motion sim setup, but his MFS stick looks to have a notable about of flex.

As mentioned, I'm rather discouraged by Virpil, having read/seen how much wobble, flex and slop there appears to be in reviews. In fact, it's the number of times I saw this in Virpil reviews that had me wondering about similar wobble in the more expensive PFT and MFS products - Several review vids of PFT show the collective lever jiggling about like crazy, while the MSF lever looks to have a lot of flex... I expected much better for those prices, so I was wondering if it was just the way the reviewers had set things up?

Morning all, Given how my heli-brain is very dominant and is refusing to operate my hands correctly unless they're holding a proper collective, I'm looking around to see what options are worth considering and would appreciate some guidance... I'm after something chair-mounted, not too long and preferably with lots of different inputs as it will need to replace my HOTAS throttle. I've already discounted the Virpil based on a number of reviews, and WinWing have annoyingly discontinued theirs. I've been most drawn to the offerings from Microhelis.de (types 3 and 8 ) and the forum's own K-51... but have also wondered if Max Flight Stick (H145, OH58D) or Pro-Flight Trainer's PUMA range are any good - These latter two look quite good, but in review videos the sticks from both companies look to have a lot of flexion when operated. Is that something owners here have found? Are there any others I should be looking at?

Just an update - I got the stick extension... but more importantly I got the Cam Upgrade pack, which included the friction clutch components. I have to say, the clutch has made a lot of difference - Not only does the stick stay wherever I put it, meaning I can move my fingers enough to press buttons without the stick moving around dangerously, but it adds enough friction that I can now feel when I am moving the stick a few mil!!! Of course I still can't fly for spit and it's taking a while to understand what's actually happening with the aircraft, but this addition has at least eliminated one particular issue. The next problem seems to be the lack of fine control over the throttle and some muscle memory confusion during input, especially during slow-downs and landings. My brain is still thinking I should be moving my hand up and down to alter collective instead of going fore and aft on a throttle, so I might look into getting a collective instead.

Now this one looks absolutely fabulous!!!

TBH, I'd have been more interested in trying Virpil's Flanker grip, but that wasn't even announced when I went HOTAS shopping.

Mine seems to work perfectly fine...

Do you have any difficulty contorting your thumb for the controls, or reaching around the brake lever?

Kosmosima and MCG grips on a gunfighter base. Not set up specifically for me, though. Coming from a wide open CH Fighterstick, my hand just felt a little cramped, especially around the brake lever. YMMV. Very nice set, though. If I ever get rich, I'm buying a full VKB setup just to use for spaceships!!

I'm not a flight sim expert, but I have been using HOTASes for a few decades, and I recently upgraded from an older plasticky HOTAS, namely the CH Products setup. Here's the reasoning I used... The Warthog was awful. Felt like cheap janky kit, disguised as quality by heavy metal casings. I tried VKB for about a week, on loan from a friend. The kit is very nice, though a touch small for large hands like mine. The layout is generic, rather than mimicking any particular aircraft, so works well with whatever you choose to fly, including different aircraft in other sims and any spacecraft you might happen to also enjoy (like I do). It's lightweight and easy to operate, but has very good feel to it. I had some Virpil kit for about four months. This initially seemed pretty good but the layout is a little weird, and the controls can be awkward for some hands. The throttle feels overly fat and the contours did not sit well in my large hand. Most of the buttons, switches and dials had a notable amount of play in them, which was unpleasant to use, and while they sounded very clicky you could not feel much in their operation. The hats were very light too, so playing with headphones on meant I often was unsure if I'd hit the right switch, mis-clicked, accidemtally pressed, or what. The software was kinda janky and not as intuitive as others. I ended up borrowing the WinWing HOTAS, and within a couple of days had decided this was the best for my particular needs, for several reasons: They both just felt right, from the moment I laid hands on. Very smooth, very accurate. Nothing is hard to reach, or keep from accidentally pressing and it just feels great in the hands. I was really into the Hornet at the time and *love* the idea of MFDs that actually display live data while having working buttons all around... which I have now added (they're awesome!!)... and because the throttle labels all light up green! The F16 grip and F15EX throttles combine with the Orion bases to have an absolute ton of inputs, many of which have multiple modes... so whatever you fly, from the Apache to the Millennium Falcon, this offers the most control options. Buttons, switches and hats are all very firm, not too light, no play, quietly clicky but easy to feel and not so easy to mis-operate. The throttle was supposed to have helicopter collectives, although WinWing discontinued this just as I ordered mine. Nevertheless, grip and throttle swapping is very easy with the options you have. The software is very easy to set up, configure and tweak. Advanced features and editing of stuff is also a popular option. Price was good, especially as there was a sale on, and no additional UK tax/import fees to faff about with.

Is it easy for tanks to spot a Gazelle peeking out of cover from 4-ish kilometres away, or is it more a game exploit? I'm guessing you fly from the co-pilot seat?

As you know, firing off heavy missiles (HOT3 25kg, Mistral 20kg) makes the aircraft lighter and so it needs a little less collective to maintain hover. I'm guessing the problem with AI managing those collective changes while you're in the co-pilot seat is that when you swap back to pilot, the in-game collective will be out of sync with your physical peripheral... and possibly the AT pedals too.

I'm pretty sure I did, but I'll double-check before my flight tonight. It has the provision but, as mentioned, the friction clutches are sold separately. I might buy the kit as a birthday present for myself... along with the cyclic extension.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah....... sorry Major, that ain't workin' out so well, Sir...... Should I go get anuvver one? Exactly what I'm thinking - WinWing do a joystick extension rod (adjustable to 170mm) and a kit comprising extra springs, dampers, and different cam profiles. The dampers aren't sold separately, so I'll have to get the kit, ditch the spring/cam assy entirely and just use the dampers. That should provide enough tactile counter-pressure, without a resistance that I have to fight against. Their MFSSB base might be another option, being a 'movable force-senstitive sensor' where the amount of input depends on degree of force applied rather than haw far you move the stick. It's over £400 though and out of stock anyway. I did wonder if I was high enough. Something in the back of my mind thought my skids were still touching, but my eyes were sure I'd risen a good few feet... clearly my eyes lie!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! So my torque was way too low, and I still had basically zero altitude? No wonder I was flopping around like a drunken floor gymnast!! I tell you, these Track files are SO useful. Being able to see the point being explained makes so much more sense, now. Thank-you very much for sharing that!!

It's been about.... *cough* thirty-two *cough* years since I last took the controls of a live helicopter, and I remember the cyclic being fairly light, but I recall there was enough counter-resistance that I could feel when I was pushing on it. This WinWing is so light that I can blow on it and it moves about 6mm. Heck, if I hold it with just a finger and thumb, simply breathing moves it over ½". The cams it comes with are pretty smooth and resistance builds towards the ends of the axes, without having a discernible centre detent, but I either need to increase the spring tension, swap the cam profile or maybe just increase the damper force. Right now, simply moving my thumb to operate the switches is enough to throw everything right off. Aye, that's generally what seems to happen. Most commonly I skid in a left slide, and if I manage to stabilise that, I tip forward to get moving and end up sliding backwards or at an angle. Increasing collective seems to make it worse unless I put a lot on and just launch myself - Same for trying to hover, collective does nothing and cyclic generates lift but only once I'm moving at 40-60kph at least. Certainly this thread has given me a lot to work with and try out, and it looks like my weekend will be very busy with this - Thank-you everybody! I'll report back soon, hopefully with news of improvements....