Europa

Not directly related about the subject but maybe you judge that I dont know anything how to fly or maybe it is just the Bf109.

That one is after the later posts not the original. Don't manipulate like cheap newspapers. I thank everybody who shares information.

If that is not your problem than why you bother to troll. And the "again" is not solely dedicated to you. You felt special huh? and most of all read the OP "Does anyone having the same issue or is this happens particulary to my self?" as you will see and capable of understanding I explained my observations and asked this question. And this is not a claim. I am just asking for information. If you have a proper information then answer properly do not keep it secret for your self. @Jcomm, thank you for your answer. I will make my tests. A test I made earlier was, following the manual normal landing prosedures, I trimmed the aircraft -3 as of the check list. But it was painful.

What is the point of you tease me again while I am trying to be silent and accept this mindset. You are just boasting as if you knew something or you have the evidence but you are keeping secret. Do not troll unless you have proper information to share. I can gladly accept and change my mind.

You are writing nonsense things just to oppose me and I dont see the reason of your obsessions. These things should be open to discussion but you are more like fanatics. This is not about my flight skills or customer satisfaction. These are my observations. I find the center of gravity might be a little bit aft and slats effectiveness is a bit harsh and I also question if it should stall like this. First you refer me to the zero trim hands off post of Yo-Yo which the question is not about the hands off trim. Do you really think that everything is so perfect not to be questioned? If someone has the correct answer please enlighten me. I will surely accept the answer if there is a quantitive answer. Otherwise please show some respect and be quite.

You guys are biased. You keep saying the same thing. You dont even think about it. You don't even question the possibility of a problem. You belive the DCS model is the real thing and can't be questioned. You are obbsessed with the idea that everything is perfect and who questions this can only be "well yes he was looking for an imaginary Bf109 and he found a kick ass hard core sim so he must be fool not to see this". The problem is not about what I expected and what I found or about I am whining because I can't fly it. Thats is your bias. In fact I can perfectly fly it. Keep on what you belive and continue to warship.

Even I say white you will say black. There is no point arguing or discussing things with people like you. Just another status quo. You are making fun of me but make fun of your self. As I asked that to find peoples opinion to choose from 3 of the DCS models before I buy so I can buy something unbroken. I never asked type rating for Bf109. Can you understand the difference. You can not come to a conclusion that I know nothing about Bf109. Can you understand that? ..and what made you an Bf109 authority at first place? This is a simulator. Do you know what is a simulator? All you can do is to say "as real as it gets" You will never mimic the real thing %100 in a simulator. And if this is a rare ww2 bird than it is always questionable. None of you have ever flown it. Did you? Are you a test pilot of Bf109's or were you the assistant to Mr. Willy? You can implement the performance of the airplane as much as the sim's game engine allows but the handling of it will be always different as even the joystick we are using will make difference. There are other simulators out there (Surprise DCS is not the only simulator in the world) focused on WW2 era, lots of Bf109's and MS FSX/Prepar3D/Xplane where you can buy Bf109 AddOns. And I have them all, every Bf109 modeled out there. So I can easily talk about the "PERFORMANCE", "LOOK AND FEEL" and "HANDLING" differences between them. For example some of the models in DCS is the exact copy with the one in MSFSX. But the feeling is diffrent because the environment (the sim) is different. Even you copy cat the performance numbers by the book in to the simulator. The core of the simulator will handle it different form sim to sim. It will feel different. Even the performance could be different as how good is the physics simulated in the sim. Always questionable. Laminar flow, fluid mechanics are really though subjects. An airplane which is about to stall will naturally try to drop the nose to gain speed or otherwise fall like a brick. It will not sail like the one in the footage. In real world in all other simulators that is what happens.

Speaking of Vmin. Approach speed of the K4 is documented in the manual to be as 220 km/h which makes Vso 170 km/h (Vso: stall speed in landing configuration=1.3xVref (Vref: approach speed)). You can easily see that I am gliding at 170km/h (not in landing configuration) and that is below gliding speed which is documented to be 200 km/h. No wind. The power off gliding speed is 220-230 km/h (See the manual). In the footage you can easily see that it is a little pitched up. Considering the drag added with the AoA it is surprisingly conservative holding the speed constant at 170km/h and very stable. Do the math this thing had to fall like a brick at that speed. Who claims that this is perfectly normal as I did not trim the elevator and left it at 0, please step forward

People believe that there are no aileron or rudder trims in the Bf109 but that is not correct. In fact there are. It is pre-trimmed by the ground crew. Thanks to DCS it is also simulated and it is in the settings menu where you select special setting for the K-4. I trimmed it to be -25 aileron and -25 rudder, So thats why the stick is in centered position and rudder is a little bit left to achieve the coordinated flight. Also please re-check the video from 02:00 and look at the RPM. I hold the aircraft pitch up to achieve the stall speed and wait for the RPM to lower automatic. Minimum torque and idle thrust. You will see the airframe starts to shake signaling a stall. At that point I let go the stick and rudder. Throttle is idle and RPM is minimum. The airplane is not in landing configuration and flaps are fully retracted. The trim is constant at 0 at all times. You can achieve the same result. Surprisingly I also tested with the engine out. I cut the engine and the result did not changed. I have the video and will post it. Please note that the pitch up attitude is constant at all speeds, thrust and torque settings.

Did he just suggested that all un-trimmed airplanes in the world will not stall? Damn! Poor Newton!

You are kidding right? Still? So you say it is quite normal that a Bf109 can hover and stall like a parachute. And you believe any untrimmed airplane will do the same thing? You can confidently say it as you read the papers and look at some charts. Please show me an airplane in the world where it can still tries to pitch up at stall speed and do not stall. LOL. Seriously. What are you smoking guys I want that same thing. Lets get high together. Why do I feel like Galileo against the Christian church. "Nonetheless it moves" It is no surprise yet there are still people in the world who will defend the world is flat no matter what.

Here you are! https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

No hard evidence but I have some magic. Well maybe I am not an aeronautical engineer but can you explain me if this is normal? So you guys say this is very normal. Edit: Change the video. More detailed. Please enable the subtitles by pressing the CC button on the video. And sorry for the audio. There is an issue about the audio. I will fix it when I get back home. For now simply lower the volume.

Don't get confused I do not expect "Zero-trim-hands-off-flight" from a Bf109. This is not about to suit me. I can well suit the simulator that is why I pay and buy it. ... to experience how a Bf109 is in the confort of my living room without spending a 5million euros. Besides I am not against Yo-Yo's article. To your surprise I totally do agree with it. But I still think that there is a weight balance issue and the CoG is way too back. People seems to be divided to 2 groups here. One side says there is a problem and one side says there is not. What is strange is "the there is nothing wrong you silly ignorant who know nothing about how to fly the K4, shut up and obey" side beats and mutes the protesters. But the king is naked.

Thanks for the tip. I will try

:) Lol. I immediately realized that. But as a collector I will buy it eventually. Just did not expect this. I am not complaining because I can't fly it. I perfectly do. I can fly it with +max trim at all times. If I can ignore it no problem but I cant. I dont complain but claim that there is something wrong with the weight balance. . IT IS WAY TOO OBVIOUS.

No this attitude will not solve anything. This is a forum where we are allowed to discuss. You have no right to mute me. If we wont discuss here where will we. You say full throttle it is normal then why does not the P-51 do the same behaviour. Speaking of hard facts then please be kind enough to prove that I am wrong with hard facts. This is not about adapting my style which is a rude claim also and ED is not the only Bf109 developper I have tried every simulator out there none has such FM about Bf109. Obviously they are WW2 specialized sims. Have you ever flown a Bf109 yourself so how can you say that I am wrong. Please then show me the hard fact data that says the bf109 is out of center of gravity that it looses its balance significantly towards back on take off in every phase of flight. (Fact) Bf109's center of gravity is a bit aft of main carriage (but not towards the tail to lift the nose up). There are real world pilots reports that it will lift its tail off the ground on take off which is opposed to this FM. What if I am right?

I am still not convinced that Yo-Yo's artickle explains this problem. It only says it is normal not to expect hands off driving of a Bf109 which is I totally agree but... I still claim that it is unbalanced because even when you start a quick mission in the air the airplane instantly erects the nose which is evident that it has some issues about the balance. The airplane erects the nose up when take off. This is not natural due to the low speed unless the center of gravity is way too back. Bf109 must be nose heavy as of its design. There is more mass in front of the plane. And the wings are relativly frontal.

I have read that but did not understand anything somebody has to translate it for me in plane English. Besides I am not discussing the hands off flight but I think the aircraft has some balance issue due to the miss alligned center of gravity.

Dublicate please delete. Dont know how this happened. Sorry. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=206431

It feels that K4's center of gravity is way too aft as it erects the nose immediately when the whells lift off the ground. Which is unnatural. To compansate this situation I need to trim the aircraft full nose down +2. This does not seem correct. Even than the full trim is barely enough. I keep the full nose down setting at all speeds and power setting. Even at low speeds. I am fully aware that the aircrafts have their characteristics to pitch the nose up or down at various speeds and power settings. But while flying the K-4 it feels more than a trim setting but a weight balance issue due to miss alligned center of gravity. Does anyone having the same issue or is this happens particulary to my self?

+1 I just bought the plane and test it. The plane is extremely tail heavy and tends to erect the nose. Even with the trim stap set to the full nose down position it is barely enough. Though it is surprisingly strage to hear that while some people reporting the same problem others are fine with it. Is it a bug or is it something else?

I bought the Bf109 and able to test it. To my surprise the aircraft is too much tail heavy and I cant fly it without the trimming all the way to the "nose down" position +2. I dont think that is normal. This makes me think that I am either doing something wrong or there is something with my plane configuration. I made sure that gear and flaps are retracted. Any ideas?

Wow thats a lot of valuable information for me. Thank you all so much for your answers. It seems to me that everybody agrees on Bf109 which is the perfect match what I have in heart as I usually fly Bf109's in other sims. %80 percent. Actually my favorite WW2 airplane is the Fw190 but it is tricky in dogfights. You cant jump in to a dogfight with Fw190 unless the odds are on your favour. This makes Bf109 more playful which makes sense that I find myself flying the Bf109 %80 percent. Though I admire the beauty of the Spitfire but I never favor it in a dogfight (personal taste). With your help here is how I arranged my shopping list. 1. Bf109 (More common and my default never go wrong fighter) 2. Fw190 (Personal favorite, excellent roll rates make it a unique fighter for whom to be able to master) 3. Spitfire (A legendary beauty, +has the Epsom compaign to spice up)

Maybe you find my question as dumb. But I will appreciate if I can pick your thougts. I am new to DCS and I am a huge fan of WW2 airplanes. I recently bought normandy map pack and I own the P51. Now I want to buy another ww2 plane. I can't make my mind with my tight budget. I am going to buy one more airplane. I wish I could test them but there is no demo version so please help me to decide. Please dont get confused I am not asking which one is a better fighter I am asking in the terms of flight modeling and level of details. Fw190 or Bf190 or the Spit?