Su-33/Kutz Tactical Doctrine

Anyone got any links to info on how the Russians would fight the Kutz and its Su-33s if they had to? Things like how far the CAP is from the boat, do they take-off with limited fuel and then tank before heading out for their mission (I seem to remember something about the 33 not being able to take off fully loaded IRL), what's the full complement of 33s available...etc

And doesn't the Russian navy use a helicopter with a radar underneath for their AWACS? Any chance to see this in LOBS? (hey everyone else is asking for crazy stuff why can't I??)

Any info appreciated!

I believe the best source is Alfa, but I would think that the exact tactics would be classified. The 33's might not be able to take off with full fuel load, but its was enough enough to conduct buddy-refueling.

And yes, they did use an AWACS-heli.

The Su-33 would have been used in defense of the surface and submarine fleet from enemy aircraft and anti-ship missiles. So you can think of the targets as mostly consisting of S-3 Vikings and ASW helis, and harpoon and tomahawk missiles.

Enemy fighters would be an issue only in that they'd be defending those ASW assets. As such the Su-33 did not have any sort of air-to-ground role, IIRC, though it was capable of carrying it out.

I think the Kuz was suppozed to carry 24 Su-33's, and also MiG-29K's which I think were cancelled.

Which helo.....the variant of the Ka-25 that I'm thinking of... the radome is for periscope detection... You may be thinking of the UK Helo Awacs solution developed after the Falklands War.

Sea King AEW

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/seaking-aew2.jpg

The aviation cruiser concept(to which the Kuznetsov belong) was designed to support the submarine fleet - i.e. to help protect them against all sorts of threats:

1). against ASW surface ships via onboard SSM armament(12x P-700 "Granit").

2). against enemy submarines via powerful sonar suite and large complement of ASW helicopters(Ka-27PL).

3). against enemy ASW aircraft via fighter wing supported by early warning system that includes the Ka-29RLD(aka Ka-31) EAW helicopter.

As far as 3). is concerned, three different fighter types were in the picture - namely the Yak-41, the MiG-29K and Su-33. The two former were from the start designed as multirole assets, which means that they would also have had a role to play for 1)., while the much larger Su-33 was pursued basically as a dedicated naval airsuperiority fighter and retained the WCS of the landbased Su-27.

As you know the Su-33 ended up being the only type operated onboard the Kuznetsov and its role is to provide air dominance in an area surrounding the surface group(i.e. item 3).) to provide aircover for friendly submarines operating in the area(by intercepting enemy airborne ASW assets) and "fleet defence" for the surface group itself(protection against enemy air raids). Su-33s would patrol the airspace in a perimeter surrounding the group and be supported by a "GCI" type system from the Kuznetsov, for which the Ka-29RLD/Ka-31 acts as a "flying radar" - i.e. the helicopter doesn't control fighters directly and as such cannot really be termed an "AWACS".

I don't really know how far from the ship they would operate, but the Su-33 is perfectly capable of taking off with a full fuel tank and full payload of air-to-air missiles(it might have to use the long take-off run though). I think air refuling is more for extending "time on station" - i.e. to extend the duration in which they can be in the air before having to return to the ship.

There have been varies proposals for upgrading the Su-33, so that it could undertake a secondary strike role, but so far this hasn't materialised for the Su-33s currently in service and they can best be described as a long range AD asset. The new two-seat Su-27KUB/Su-33UB version does have multirole capability though, but so far it only exists in prototype form(AFAIK two test airframes).

what's the full complement of 33s available...etc

The Russian navy currently operates one air regiment(the 279 KIAP) of Su-33s, which means 24 aircraft. If need be it should be possible to put all 24 on the carrier, but that would probably mean that half of them would be placed on the deck as I doubt the hanger deck has room for all of them(at least not with the full helicopter compliment). However, I believe the normal procedure is to put one squadron(12 units) + one airframe as attrition reserve on the ship, while the other squadron is kept in stand-by at an airbase(IIRC called "Severomorsk-3") on the Kola peninsula.

With Yak-41s or MiG-29Ks the compliment would probably have been a full air regiment onboard the ship - partially because these types are smaller(take up less room on the ship) and partially to take full advantage of their multirole nature.

Which helo.....the variant of the Ka-25 that I'm thinking of... the radome is for periscope detection... You may be thinking of the UK Helo Awacs solution developed after the Falklands War.

 

Sea King AEW

 

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/seaking-aew2.jpg

No he is thinking of the Ka-31 early warning helicopter..

...which is a version of the Ka-29, which in turn is a derrivative of the Ka-27 :) .

Ka-27 variants:

* Ka-27PL ("Ka-28" for export) - dedicated anti-submarine variant

* Ka-27PS - dedicated search & rescue variant

* Ka-29 - naval combat and multipurpose helicopter

* Ka-29RLD ("Ka-31" for export) - dedicated early warning variant

Only Ka-27PL, Ka-27PS and Ka-29RLD are stationed onboard the Kuznetsov - mostly Ka-27PL for obvious reasons.

The Ka-25 is an outdated type that preceeded the Ka-27 :) .

However, I believe the normal procedure is to put one squadron(12 units) + one airframe as attrition reserve on the ship, while the other squadron is kept in stand-by at an airbase(IIRC called "Severomorsk-3") on the Kola peninsula.

. . . . and if you go to the right co-ordinates on Google Earth, you can actually see them :)

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=21944

As always a very informative post from Alfa. :thumbup:

I read on this forum some time ago that a Su33 took off from the carrier with a total weight of approx 30 000Kg. As has already been stated the su33 can most likely take off with a full load but realistically I doubt it would, seeing as for most missions you'd just be carrying too much fuel and probably have to dump a lot of it before landing back on the carrier. For off line missions I always leave out two A2A missiles on Pylon 4 and 9 or 5 and 8. I also never carry more than 80% fuel (7520kg) but mostly 70% (6580kg). This keeps you safely under 30 000kg and seems more realistic than 100% of everything all the time and it makes fuel management part of the mission as it would be IRL , not to mention that by the time you have to RTB you should be well with in the Max LW for the SU33 which I think is just under 25 000kg so you gotta have less than 2500 kg of fuel to land safely.

"Take me to your Leader" :D

I smell a scene from "Independance Day" :)

Good info by the way.