AI aircraft can Visual Detect ground units from 50km away?

[vicx]

Today I was testing the ability of AI aircraft to identify and locate ground units. I'm playing Combined Arms as a Tactical Commander (Fog of War ON) and I noticed that enemy aircraft were mapping the position of my ground units from silly stand-off ranges.

 

So I set up a test mission using the F-86 to test this because AFAIK it has no search radar or RWR.

 

The Blue F-86 was able to detect Red SAM units from exactly 50km away and mark them on the Blue tactical map. That is some pretty good visual recon.

 

If I turn off the Red SAM units radar then the visual detection range goes back to a more reasonable value of ~10km (which is still 5x better than I can do in DCS with a 1080P monitor).

 

I have only just started looking at this and my next step will be to ask the unit which sensor it used to get the detect.

[Flagrum]

Interesting. I think, this is a F-86 related bug: according to the LUA files, the plane has a generic radar warning receiver ("Abstract RWR") which, I think, is able to detect radar emissions at 85% of the maximum range of the emitter (what type of SAM was that? If I am right, it should have a max. range of about 59 km).

 

As the real Sabre does not have a RWR, this is seemingly an oversight/bug of the implementation of the aircraft in DCS.

[vicx]

Yeah I thought it would be 'Abstract RWR' too.

 

I actually think any aircraft using 'Abstract RWR' is able to map my ground units onto a Tactical Map from 50km away. They don't need to use any other sensors for this because 50km combined with instantaneous detection is a pretty good sensor.

 

Lots of AI aircraft and many helos use 'Abstract RWR'.

 

I looked into this because having your units trivially identified and located is not a trivial problem for a CA player. It doesn't need to be an aircraft that wipes you out once your positions are known. MLRS and Artillery will do the job nicely.

 

--edited for clarity--

 

So I just tested with the P-51D which does NOT have 'Abstract RWR' entry. the P-51 does not actually detect the SA-8 OSA at all until a SAM is launched. This is because the SAM acquisition and engagement range are longer than the visual detection range of the P-51. This is as it should be. However after the P-51 is fired upon it take evasive action and is still able to map the exact location of the SA-8 OSA (still about 7km away) in about 5 seconds while doing corkscrews. Perhaps still a bit too skillful.

 

Ideally initial markers on the map detecting units would have more ambiguity until more rigorous detection tests are satisfied. An ambiguous recon marker might have very basic type information and be represented by an area of interest polygon rather than a unit marker.

 

---

 

Anyway after entering the SAM engagement zone the heroic P-51D evaded 5 out of 6 SAM launches and only took a hit when it put the SAM unit on its six trying to fly out of range. A good effort.

Edited November 2, 2014 by vicx
clarity

[Flagrum]

The sensors and in general the ability of the AI to detect threats is being discussed in several threads - to me at least with not 100% conclusive results so far.

 

But if the AI uses completely wrong sensors then this is an obvious bug imo - therefore I crossposted a link to this thread in the Sabre Bug Forums.

[vicx]

I didn't mean to derail my own thread :/ but I have a better handle on the issue now.

 

My interest in reporting this as an issue is more to do with the unrealistic ability for almost all of the planes and helos in DCS to perfectly MAP onto the allied tactical map, the longitude and latitude of enemy SAM unit positions

 

The humble RWR has great power in a Combined Arms scenario. It doesn't just say SAM radar over that way - it actually gives you GPS co-ordinates (even if the radar is 150km or even further away),

and it does this feat INSTANTLY,

and it can do this from way OUTSIDE the actual range that ANY SAM radar can even detect the plane or helo,

 

Right now in my copy of DCS:Combined Arms, a passive RWR sensor is out-performing a dozen specialized optical systems and radar systems for planes and helicopters that are present in DB_sensors.

 

In my first post I caused a minor derail when I provided the F-86 as an example. I noticed it was able to map my SA-8 OSA from 50km away when it should only have eyeballs for sensors.

 

Flagrum correctly identified an F-86 issue because someone snuck a RWR into that plane BUT that wasn't as important to me as the fact that the 'Abstract RWR' sensor is providing magical abilities to almost all the planes and helos in DCS.

 

In my copy of DCS:Combined Arms a humble RWR doesn't just say SAM over that way - it actually gives itself and all it's allies the exact GPS co-ordinates of that SAM radar.

 

Test it out yourself.

 

 

 

Start a new mission in mission editor

---

Confirm or Set [Customise>Mission Options>Enforce F10 View Options] to FOG OF WAR

Add a BLUE Tactical Commander Role to the mission.

---

Setup a RED search radar. (I chose SA-3 SR)

Add a BLUE plane way outside the search radar range.

(I put an FA-18 170km from the SR) and the next time (an F-86 170km from the SR)

Add a waypoint that brings the plane into the radar range.

---

Run mission. [Fly]

Choose role - BLUE Tactical Commander.

Watch empty map with moving plane. A commanders view of the AO.

Accelerate time if you are impatient

Marvel as the exact GPS location of the enemy radar unit is revealed from your plane that is BVR (and then some) from the SR.

Marvel that you didn't even need to turn on your own search radar to do this.

Visualise the detection zone of the SR

Marvel that you still have a 80km safety zone before you even have a chance of being detected by the SR.

 

Do the same thing with a Mig15 (Yes it works)

 

Easiest Recon mission ever?

[SDsc0rch]

 

...

 

The humble RWR has great power in a Combined Arms scenario. It doesn't just say SAM radar over that way - it actually gives you GPS co-ordinates (even if the radar is 150km or even further away),

and it does this feat INSTANTLY..

 

 

hmm..

 

the "fog" of war doesn't appear very dense

 

quite transparent actually

[vicx]

It turns out there are ways to dynamically disappear a unit off the map using LUA while the unit remains visible in the sim. I read about it in the RUS forums.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=96572

 

This guy BAntDit has written a neat framework called MSF that takes a fairly opinionated approach to extending CA. I mostly agree with his opinions so I really like it. If you can read LUA then it is fairly self-explanatory. The code is english.

 

It might be possible to fix these little issues with "opinionated" LUA.

Edited November 11, 2014 by vicx
typo