M2000 vs Mig-21

[Hummingbird]

10-15 minutes of rest is out of the fight.

 

Indeed, but some need a much shorter recovery time. It differs. Either way if you G-loc in a dogfight you're effectively out of the fight.

 

Regarding G suits:

 

- The old standard USAF CSU-13B/P G-Suit is thought to provide 1 to 1.5 G protection.

- The new Advanced Technology Anti-G Suit (ATAGS) reports increases G-tolerance by 2.5-3 Gs and a 50% reduction in G-related muscle fatigue.

 

http://fightersweep.com/1411/agsm/

 

I believe the ATAGS is based on the Le Belle suit first used by EF & Rafale pilots. A 3 G increase is more than I expected tbh.

[ttaylor0024]

It differs from person to person, some people can G-loc and then with a little rest, like 10-15 min, once again achieve their best.

 

If you black out you're lucky if you're not dead. Either you're going to lawn dart into the ground or get shot if your aircraft auto-levels. When it happens, you're unconscious for a time (depends on the person) and then slowly become more aware of what's happening. Most likely what's happened is you've completely forgotten what you were doing, what happened, and where you are.

 

There's a reason you train for tolerance, not recovery.

[Hook47]

If you black out you're lucky if you're not dead. Either you're going to lawn dart into the ground or get shot if your aircraft auto-levels. When it happens, you're unconscious for a time (depends on the person) and then slowly become more aware of what's happening. Most likely what's happened is you've completely forgotten what you were doing, what happened, and where you are.

 

There's a reason you train for tolerance, not recovery.

 

All very interesting stuff, G suits are something I don't know much about so good to learn. All this being said, how long could a mirage pilot actually hang with the 9g sustained turn the plane boasts? From the above 9 Gs sounds like it would get serious even with a G suit

[GGTharos]

Depends on the pilot's health, hydration, training ... all you need is a bad day to lose g tolerance.

 

USAF selects pilots carefully now for tolerance, and there are examples of them holding 9g for 30 sec. Not modeled in this game.

 

Above9g you start getting into diminishing returns for everything, pilot and airframe alike.

[Hook47]

Depends on the pilot's health, hydration, training ... all you need is a bad day to lose g tolerance.

 

USAF selects pilots carefully now for tolerance, and there are examples of them holding 9g for 30 sec. Not modeled in this game.

 

Above9g you start getting into diminishing returns for everything, pilot and airframe alike.

 

Much of that sounds as if it would be very difficult to accurately simulate without massive rage from the community. Probably safer to treat all players as if they had the same pilot if they start getting into a more realistic simulation.

 

I think 20-30 seconds at 9gs sounds a reasonable limit. In the current form it sounds like a DCS pilot will be able to use the Mirages STT to much greater effect than it could be done in real life.

[GGTharos]

In the current form you go 'goodnight' in 5-ish seconds at 9g in-game.

[ttaylor0024]

All very interesting stuff, G suits are something I don't know much about so good to learn. All this being said, how long could a mirage pilot actually hang with the 9g sustained turn the plane boasts? From the above 9 Gs sounds like it would get serious even with a G suit

 

Like GGTharos said, a ton of small factors go into it, the things he mentioned, as well as even lean body mass and blood pressure (higher is better). For 9g profiles (F-16, F-22) in the USAF I believe they hold 9g for 15s in the centrifuge. Most other pointy noses in the US armed forces are 7.5g profiles, and have lighter amounts of centrifuge training. 7.5g will it you to sleep quickly if you're not prepared, let alone 9.

[Hummingbird]

If you black out you're lucky if you're not dead. Either you're going to lawn dart into the ground or get shot if your aircraft auto-levels. When it happens, you're unconscious for a time (depends on the person) and then slowly become more aware of what's happening. Most likely what's happened is you've completely forgotten what you were doing, what happened, and where you are.

 

There's a reason you train for tolerance, not recovery.

 

Sure, no disagreement there. I am refering specifically to the physiological effect, not the effect it would have in combat.

[Hummingbird]

Like GGTharos said, a ton of small factors go into it, the things he mentioned, as well as even lean body mass and blood pressure (higher is better). For 9g profiles (F-16, F-22) in the USAF I believe they hold 9g for 15s in the centrifuge. Most other pointy noses in the US armed forces are 7.5g profiles, and have lighter amounts of centrifuge training. 7.5g will it you to sleep quickly if you're not prepared, let alone 9.

 

These profiles are usually trained without a G suit on though, which is worth taking into consideration.

 

With a G suit some individuals can endure 11-12 G's sustained:

 

[ttaylor0024]

These profiles are usually trained without a G suit on though, which is worth taking into consideration.

 

With a G suit some individuals can endure 11-12 G's sustained:

 

 

You do a 6g profile in primary jet training without a G-Suit, however the profiles thereafter depending on your final airframe selection is done with the suit on. No doubt some people (very very few) can pull that amount of G. There's civilian airshow pilots that pull 12 sustained with no suit at all.

Edited January 14, 2016 by ttaylor0024

[Hummingbird]

You do a 6g profile in primary jet training without a G-Suit, however the profiles thereafter depending on your final airframe selection is done with the suit on. No doubt some people (very very few) can pull that amount of G. There's civilian airshow pilots that pull 12 sustained with no suit at all.

 

Yeah, as with most other things in life regular training is key. You can vastly increase your G tolerance with regular training, and the more regular the training is the better your tolerance becomes, which I guess explains the feats of those airshow pilots.

[jojo]

All that have been said about G tolerance is true.

 

But Mirage 2000C was a dedicated AA fighters, used in dedicated AA squadrons. Their pilot used to spend 80% of their training in AA.

 

"Blue" Mirage 2000 airframes were known to suffer a little bit more than green Mirage because they take more G on average flight.

 

I think that their pilot were trained and ready for 9G.

[Hummingbird]

This is the Libelle suit, worn by German & Swiss airforce pilots, and now a copy is being worn by F-22 pilots in the states.

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Hummingbird

[ttaylor0024]

Yeah, as with most other things in life regular training is key. You can vastly increase your G tolerance with regular training, and the more regular the training is the better your tolerance becomes, which I guess explains the feats of those airshow pilots.

 

Yep, that's all you can do. Kind of like with weightlifting, you can really only go up to your own personal physiological maximum in my belief anyway. I don't think everyone could sustain 12Gs like that airshow pilot with training, I believe part of it is genetics as well. It would be nice though!

 

All that have been said about G tolerance is true.

 

But Mirage 2000C was a dedicated AA fighters, used in dedicated AA squadrons. Their pilot used to spend 80% of their training in AA.

 

"Blue" Mirage 2000 airframes were known to suffer a little bit more than green Mirage because they take more G on average flight.

 

I think that their pilot were trained and ready for 9G.

 

All the US pilots with 9G aircraft are trained and ready for 9G at any point as well. You have to be qual'd in order to fly it.

 

This is the Libelle suit, worn by German & Swiss airforce pilots, and now a copy is being worn by F-22 pilots in the states.

 

Yeah, mentioned a few pages back the 9G aircraft the US services has pilots wear a new ATAGS suit for 2-3Gs of "help."

[jojo]

All the US pilots with 9G aircraft are trained and ready for 9G at any point as well. You have to be qual'd in order to fly it.

 

And I have no doubt about it.

 

The point was just to say, our DCS pilot shouldn't faint just reaching 9G...

[GGTharos]

He doesn't. It all depends on g onset, though IMHO the 9g tolerance represents a fairly weak US pilot.

 

As for the guy doing the 12g course, he's out of whatever fight he is. Lights may be on and there's someone there, but he's fallen and he can't get up. ;-)

[jojo]

He doesn't. It all depends on g onset, though IMHO the 9g tolerance represents a fairly weak US pilot.

 

You have a special gift to looks like we are contradicting when in fact we agree.

 

Yes, the G tolerance of DCS pilot is on the weak side around 9G. It could be better.