X52 problems, need advice from devs

[vpr255]

Sorry for posting this again after raising an old thread previously but I've been back to Saitek who said it's probably a problem with Lock on and not my X52 as the joystick works properly in other games. I've also posted an official tech support question with Ubisoft but I've not had any response or any form of acknowledgement from them since posting 3 weeks ago.

 

The two problems are best described in my post in the ubisoft lock on community help forum along with a track file: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/99610606/m/3991089464

 

I'd just like to know if the problems I have, notably the second problem I describe is normal behaviour or not? I've also reinstalled my system since posting the above thread and this has not helped correct the problem.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

System specs:

 

Windows XP Home Version 2002 plus Service Pack 2

Intel P4 2.8Ghz, 2GB Ram

DirectX 9.0c

Sapphire 256MB ATI Radeon X800 XL (Catalyst 6.7)

Creative SB Audigy 2 (Driver 5.12.8.1164)

[Shaman]

It's not normal behaviour. Many people use X-52 here, and have no crazy issues like you described (including me).

LockOn devs cannot help you. The game is fine and fully supports X-52.

You should contact Saitek's support.

http://www.saitekforum.com

[hitman]

That sounds like the pots are out of calibration. Have you tried calibrating your stick with the microsoft controller config?

[vpr255]

It's not normal behaviour. Many people use X-52 here, and have no crazy issues like you described (including me).

LockOn devs cannot help you. The game is fine and fully supports X-52.

You should contact Saitek's support.

www.saitekforum.com

 

As said in the first paragraph of my post I have already posted on the saitek forums and been told it is more likely a problem with Lock On and not the joystick as my X52 works fine in other games and in the windows control panel.

 

I'll have another go at calibration and do another check for conflicts tonight if I get the chance. Anyway thanks for the response, at least now I know it is actually a problem.

 

One thing I didn't mention is that this also happens on my old saitek cyborg evo and even more oddly it happens when just using the keyboard with all joysticks fully uninstalled and unplugged. I was hoping the system reinstall would fix it but as it only ever happens in lockon it must be something within the game.

[hitman]

You have another keyboard?

[vpr255]

I've tried Lock On without a keyboard or mouse connected and it still happens. The joystick works fine also in the test panel within Lock On's input configuration before and after the error occurs.

 

I guess the only thing left to do is to try it on another PC and see what happens.

[hitman]

By any chance, could you post some screenshots of your joystick configuration in LOMAC??

[vpr255]

Made a short video (wmv) of my input settings (link removed)

[Shaman]

Oh my godness...

I've just bothered to watch the WMV movie you provided of your controller settings. And guess what, nothing wrong there.

So I actually bothered to check n00bi forums, download the LockOn track you provided and look what you were doing, both from outside views first, and then from the cockpit.

And guess what, there's nothing wrong with LockOn and nothing wrong with your joystick, or its settings. The problem is You alone! You don't understand completely basics of atmospheric flight.

What did you except? You've put MiG-29 at 15km altitude @ 300km/h IAS, pulled twice hard on the stick, and then did just whatever to the plane. You expected that the plane will not stall and go into horrible spin? Basically the same second mission started the plane was on the edge of becoming a falling brick, or better call it falling iron. With almost no energy it was normal that when you pulled on the stick and then released it, plane pitch down some degrees. Have you actually looked at AoA? Do you understand why planes fly, how they fly, and why they are controllable in that flight?

What a shame. Please, I suggest we meet on HyperLobby and do some basic flying, what do you think? But better before that you should do some reading. You should understand what airflow is, how lift is generated, why controllable surfaces actually control your plane, and when they don't or even work reverse, what is indicated air speed, angle of attack etc.

Your biggest crime is you haven't experienced any serious atmospheric flight model before and completely don't understand it. I suppose you played before some basic games.

[Sleek]

Sounds to me it's spiking..then again if it works ok in ur other games..??

 

I and someone else are having re-callibration problems and we've been advised to return the faulty stick to Saitek..this will be my third X52!..

 

And to top things off..P&P has just gone up in the U.K lol!

 

I gota say though u do get great support,just a shame i've had so many prob's..but thats just my luck :)

 

heres my ongoing thread,it first started with the mode switch..well u'll see..

 

http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?t=9646

[vpr255]

Oh my godness...

I've just bothered to watch the WMV movie you provided of your controller settings. And guess what, nothing wrong there.

So I actually bothered to check n00bi forums, download the LockOn track you provided and look what you were doing, both from outside views first, and then from the cockpit.

And guess what, there's nothing wrong with LockOn and nothing wrong with your joystick, or its settings. The problem is You alone! You don't understand completely basics of atmospheric flight.

What did you except? You've put MiG-29 at 15km altitude @ 300km/h IAS, pulled twice hard on the stick, and then did just whatever to the plane. You expected that the plane will not stall and go into horrible spin? Basically the same second mission started the plane was on the edge of becoming a falling brick, or better call it falling iron. With almost no energy it was normal that when you pulled on the stick, it actually started to pitch down. Have you actually looked at AoA? Do you understand why planes fly, how they fly, and why they are controllable in that flight?

What a shame. Please, I suggest we meet on HyperLobby and do some basic flying, what do you think?

Your biggest crime is you haven't experienced any serious atmospheric flight model before and completely don't understand it. I suppose you played before some basic games.

 

Why do you seem to be on a such a mission to belittle me? First you told me to contact Saitek when I had clearly said in the first paragraph that I had and also provided a reason (if you'd bothered to read it properly) to why I was told it is Lock On from the Saitek support people. And yes I do understand Angle of Attack and basic flight thankyouverymuch. For your information the bouncing at least still happens when flying at high speed such as 800kts and above.

 

To be honest the most offensive thing about your post is your intent to publicly make a joke out of me, may I ask why your doing this as I did actually post here for help and to understand the problem if it was me that was wrong. I certainly did not post here to be ridiculed by you or anyone else for that matter!

[hitman]

He is technically correct when he said your joystick looks like it is set up correct, however, if it is doing exactly what you are describing, then maybe you have a bad stick, providing you DO know what you are actually doing in the game. I cant really watch your trk file because I dont have 1.12 yet, so I cant judge your flying abilities. I WILL, however, recommend you ask one of the beta testers (specifically BritGliderPilot) or one of the ED team to view a trk file you provide and ask them their opinion. Couldnt hurt, you know...

[vpr255]

Yes it does seem that I have misunderstood and underestimated the flight model and it is a lot more advanced than what I have played in the past. I've mainly played F-22 ADF up until getting Lock on. I was just insulted at the way shamandgg decided to put his words across.

 

I am happy to admit I have been wrong and that it is me at fault after testing his opinions out. I did also ask on the ubisoft forums & the ubisoft tech support request if it was normal behaviour but after not having either of my questions answered I drew my own conclusions.

 

I am still getting some bouncing when returning the stick to centre after pitching up and down and I'll try changing the axis settings to see if this helps. I'll also pm one of the beta testers just be sure. Thanks for the advice :)

[britgliderpilot]

The MiG in that track is acting as the MiG should - you can relax about your hardware, but there is stuff to learn here that you probably haven't seen before. :)

 

Shamandgg perhaps voiced that a little strongly, it wasn't deserved . . . .

 

 

First things first - in the threads various you seem to be confusing the control surfaces, so let's get that out of the way to begin with. Much of this you probably know, but there seems to be some confusion so I'll mention it anyway.

 

The Ailerons control the roll of the aircraft.

They're mounted at the trailing edge of the wing, towards the tips.

 

The Elevators control the pitch of the aircraft - nose up/nose down.

They're mounted on the horizontal tail of the aircraft.

 

The Rudders control yaw - nose left/nose right.

They're mounted on the vertical tail of the aircraft.

 

 

The MiG is similar to most modern fast jets in that the lines get blurred slightly between control surfaces . . . .

 

Here in the form that the elevator is actually an all-moving tailplane that also controls roll at high speed.

 

Without going into too much detail, this is due to the way aerodynamics change at supersonic speeds - a moving surface at the back of the wing is no longer effective when you're flying faster than the speed of sound.

If both elevators and ailerons were hinged surfaces, you'd effectively lose control - by using an all-flying tail for pitch control you can regain it, and by differential angling of the tail on each side you can regain roll control as well.

It's still useful subsonic, but the real purpose is in supersonic flight.

 

Other aircraft will mix flaps (high lift devices mounted inboard on the wings) with ailerons - not because of high-speed requirements, but just because it makes sense to have both functions combined.

 

Elevators/Ailerons combined are usually called Tailerons.

Ailerons/Flaps combined are usually called Flaperons.

 

Compare control movements of the MiG, the Su27, and the Su33 from an external view, with and without flaps, and you'll learn a bit about them - they all work slightly differently, see if you can identify the differences.

 

 

Units - Lomac was developed from a sim featuring only Russian aircraft, and the Russians do things in metric. Speeds are in km/h, heights are in metres, and distances are in km. This is ALWAYS the case on the aircraft displays, but for external views you can change the units to imperial.

 

One km/h is about two knots, one metre is about three feet . . . . I still find myself doing quick mental arithmetic to calculate some of this stuff.

 

The reading between the HUD speed and the external view speed is sometimes different - this is because the air is thinner at altitude.

The airspeed indicator basically measures the pressure of the oncoming air - speed up and it's greater, slow down and it's less.

Since the air's thinner at altitude there'll be less pressure at 600km/h at 10,000m than there will be at 600km/h at sea level - so the indicator will read differently.

 

While you're flying at true speed of 800km/h at 15,000 metres, the forces on the aircraft at that speed will be equal to the forces of about 300km/h at sea level and so you should treat your aircraft as if you were flying at that speed.

300km/h is quite slow, and at high altitude you have less spare thrust to play with (thin air again) - hard turns up there will result in you slowing down and stalling much more easily than at sea level.

 

 

The bouncing you're noticing is due to the fact that despite the elevators being neutralised, the aircraft is still pitching forward - it has some inertia in pitch that takes a bit of time (and passing through zero alpha (angle of attack) and back the other way) to damp out.

Some aircraft will move the elevators to stop the pitch rate before you pass through zero alpha, but the MiG doesn't because it's fly-by-wire doesn't go that far.

 

You can control this yourself by not just letting the stick back to neutral when you want to return to level flight. If you relax it to neutral gently, then the aircraft will pitch forward more smoothly and should (when you get it right) avoid bouncing altogether.

 

 

The loss of control is a stall. Stalling occurs when you exceed maximum angle of attack of the wing, and you get turbulent flow developing.

 

This turbulent flow causes loss of lift (and wing performance), and usually loss of control - in order to regain control you need to get out of the stall.

 

To do this, you push the stick forward, decreasing the angle of attack until airflow over the wing is smooth again.

 

If you remain below the critical angle of attack for the wing, you won't stall the aircraft and you won't lose control - the newer aircraft will let the computers sort that out for you, but in the MiG you just have to watch carefully how much you're pulling back on the stick.

 

A flat plate will stall at about twelve degrees angle of attack, whereas a cleverly shaped piece of aerodynamics will hold on a bit longer . . . . IIRC the MiG stalls at just over twenty degrees, and the Su27 will stall at just over twenty-five degrees.

 

 

Basically, you need to learn to fly these aircraft more smoothly than F22, especially in pitch. Move the stick smoothly and deliberately, be aware of how much back stick you're applying, and if you get a maximum angle of attack warning or see any shuddering (a sign of the onset of turbulent flow), then relax back pressure on the stick slightly.

 

If when you've done that the AoA warning is still going off, then you've entered a stall and will need to recover - see above.

 

It'll take some practice before you can do this every time, but that's the learning curve - you need to learn this control before you get into combat, otherwise the enemy will take advantage of you.

 

 

I found a useful way to learn the handling and have fun was to set yourself up, guns only, against an easy AI target - the F14 is probably the easiest. Give yourself a lower fuel load than him to start with, in a head on merge, and have a go at outmaneuvring him. As you get better, then up his skill and move on to more maneuvrable opponents.

 

 

Hope the above is useful (and not too basic) - if you've got any questions or comments then ask :)

[vpr255]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, I now feel a bit stupid after all the fuss I've made over this. Your explaination of the flight models has helped my understanding greatly and so now I can start playing properly. Thanks again! :)