Super 530

[p1t1o]

This missile sucks! How come it has such a short range? Its not as bad at altitude, but at 6-10kft Im getting R-60's in the face.

 

Most of this is my dire situational awareness and lack of ACM skills - Im improving but I havnt played seriously since LOMAC and have forgotten a lot. But the range of the M530 is killing me! Literally!

 

I feel like I should start using them as a backup for the Magic II's...

 

(Combine that with the M2000's habit of dropping a lock for no discernible reason...but that is another matter.)

 

PS: I found a source (ok, it was just the wiki page...) that mentions Indian M-2000C's being capable of using the R-73, that'd be a nice addition :)

 

 

***UPDATE 22/5/2017***

 

YOU CAN FIRE THIS MISSILE BEFORE THE "TIR" HUD CUE!

 

This cue appears at Max Pk NOT max range.

 

If you fire at max Pk, it will be around the 8-10nm range, when in fact you can fire outwards of 18-20nm if used correctly.

Edited May 22, 2017 by p1t1o

[p1t1o]

Not sure, in this case, what the difference between "interceptor" and "air superiority fighter" would be. The role is defined more by the weapons. In fact the F-15 was concieved as an interceptor also. But already gone were the days of "pure" interceptors.

 

However - Indeed, my tactics are rudimentary at the moment, though Im not trying to engage from BVR-like ranges, Im just trying to survive, and these missiles are more a hindrance than anything else.

 

Im asking more from a perspective of - is this missile known to be simulated accurately?

 

If it sounds like I am a poor pilot attempting to blame his instruments...you'd be right, but Im just making sure :)

[lemoen]

530 outrange the other Fox 1 missiles already. The only drawback it has is that radar lock issue of the M2000 which may or may not be a bug. If you want more range you need to go faster and higher. The M2000 is fast, use it to your advantage.

[myHelljumper]

I don't have any lock or missile range problem, I can hit maneuvering human and AI aircrafts up to 18nm in a head on scenario.

 

The only lock drop that I have are from the enemy notching my radar.

 

The missile is designed to be used at medium to high altitude, if you use it low you will have poor range ;).

 

I think you need more practice before saying that the missile sucks :), because as said above it have the same or more range than the AIM-7M or the R-27R (in good conditions).

 

The Indian Mirage 2000 are H and TH variant, not C variant :).

Edited May 17, 2017 by myHelljumper

[p1t1o]

I don't have any lock or missile range problem, I can hit maneuvering human and AI aircrafts up to 18nm in a head on scenario.

 

The only lock drop that I have are from the enemy notching my radar.

 

The missile is designed to be used at medium to high altitude, if you use it low you will have poor range.

 

I think you need more practice before saying that the missile sucks, because as said above it have the same or more range than the AIM-7M or the R-27R (in good conditions).

 

The Indian Mirage 2000 are H and TH variant, not C variant.

 

Yeah, Im getting the picture that if I update my tactics, I'll see better performance from the 530.

 

Though I do have lock problems. I can have a lock on a friendly C-130 (set to not respond to any threats) within 10nm, flying at my altitude and not maneuvering or notching me, and the lock will drop randomly, before or after launch. It seems 50:50 whether I maintain a lock long enough for a missile to reach the target.

 

 

 

The Indian Mirage 2000 are H and TH variant, not C variant.

 

Ah. Shame, nvm.

 

*edit*

 

PS: with modern radars, can notching still break a lock? Its seems silly that in modern aircraft, they wouldnt update the velocity filter to that tactic, its not like you stop reflecting radar. I was of the impression that "notching" was still used as a kinematic thing rather than a break-lock thing.

Edited May 17, 2017 by p1t1o

[myHelljumper]

with modern radars, can notching still break a lock? Its seems silly that in modern aircraft, they wouldnt update the velocity filter to that tactic, its not like you stop reflecting radar. I was of the impression that "notching" was still used as a kinematic thing rather than a break-lock thing.

 

I don't now for very recent radar (RDY, AESA...), but the RDI (radar doppler à impulsion) use a doppler filter in look down to filter ground clutter.

That is why you loose lock off a notching target, he have the same closing speed that the ground so for your radar he is an echo from the ground.

If you are in look up the radar doesn't use the doppler filter so you won't have this problem.

 

If you still have problems with radar lock dropping, provide us a track or a video so we can see what is wrong ;).

[p1t1o]

I don't now for very recent radar (RDY, AESA...), but the RDI (radar doppler à impulsion) use a doppler filter in look down to filter ground clutter.

That is why you loose lock off a notching target, he have the same closing speed that the ground so for your radar he is an echo from the ground.

If you are in look up the radar doesn't use the doppler filter so you won't have this problem.

 

If you still have problems with radar lock dropping, provide us a track or a video so we can see what is wrong ;).

 

It seems theoretically possible to defeat notching, modern radars would have access to information regarding where the ground is expected to be, amongst more complex filters, so I wonder if they could reject returns on that basis. But modern radars are all classified so we won't know for a while I guess.

 

I'll try some more testing with the radar, apparently I have been using the 530 way too low anyway.

 

I have trouble with track files though, most of the time in my track replays, the aircraft wanders off the taxiway and attempts to takeoff on the grass...

[myHelljumper]

It seems theoretically possible to defeat notching, modern radars would have access to information regarding where the ground is expected to be, amongst more complex filters, so I wonder if they could reject returns on that basis. But modern radars are all classified so we won't know for a while I guess.

 

Remember that the RDI is from the mid 80' so computer power was not that great ;).

[p1t1o]

Remember that the RDI is from the mid 80' so computer power was not that great ;).

 

Oh yeah, I was referring in that context to modern equipment.

 

Though with "2000" in the name I always see the Mirage as more modern than it really is! To be honest its pretty snazzy for an airframe that first flew in the 70's!

[lemoen]

I think the notching effect on the m2000 is a bit aggressive. The target is only inside the doppler filter for maybe a second and lock is broken. In reality I'm sure there's a memory that will allow the radar to search the space for where the target can be (can only move SO fast), and pick it up again automatically, but in the sim, the 530 is trashed and you need to fire the other one. I basically never fire as far as 18nm, on Blue Flag everyone is on Fox 1 so I know I can wait until 6 or 8nm before firing, in a head-on M2+ merge. Lock breaking is the cause of 90% of misses I would guess.

[myHelljumper]

I think the notching effect on the m2000 is a bit aggressive. The target is only inside the doppler filter for maybe a second and lock is broken. In reality I'm sure there's a memory that will allow the radar to search the space for where the target can be (can only move SO fast), and pick it up again automatically, but in the sim, the 530 is trashed and you need to fire the other one. I basically never fire as far as 18nm, on Blue Flag everyone is on Fox 1 so I know I can wait until 6 or 8nm before firing, in a head-on M2+ merge. Lock breaking is the cause of 90% of misses I would guess.

 

Go under him, you won't have any problems ;).

 

And if you are lucky and you re-lock fast enough the missile can be guided again ;).

[OnlyforDCS]

I've never scored a hit after I've lost lock but still managed to relock quickly again. I frequently manage to reaquire lock, in fact I prepare for it by trying to keep the target in the HUD. But it doesn't seem to be working correctly or I've been really unlucky.

[myHelljumper]

You have to be lucky, but it work ;).

[lemoen]

Go under him, you won't have any problems ;).

 

 

 

And if you are lucky and you re-lock fast enough the missile can be guided again ;).

 

 

 

Most targets fly below 30 000 so I'm always above.

 

 

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[myHelljumper]

Most targets fly below 30 000 so I'm always above.

 

 

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Yes but just after you shoot, during your crank maneuver, loose altitude and go below the enemy ;).

[lemoen]

In usually WAY above

 

 

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[OnlyforDCS]

In usually WAY above

 

 

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So use your height advantage and superior speed and acceleration to press the attack, get to the merge and destroy the enemy. Sure you might lose both SuperDs but they are not wasted if you manage to destroy the bandit with your Magics or cannons.

[lemoen]

Exactly.

 

 

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[myHelljumper]

I don't think this is the best solution, a furball is dangerous and you loose a lot of SA while in the turn fight.

 

You also can't run away if you find yourself in a bad situation.

 

I would rather pump and re-engage, even more if I must protect other aircrafts.

[lemoen]

Yeah, hold on to your speed, zoom away, re-engage. Those pesky flankers and 29s with their off-bore missiles can be tricky. Also, they have loads of them.

 

I still think the M2000 loses lock too easily. Either way, this thread is about the 530 being sucky and it works fine if you use it correctly.

[myHelljumper]

I still think the M2000 loses lock too easily.

 

I really would like to see a track or a video of this behavior because I have no problems on my side...

[p1t1o]

So here's what happened with my shiny new knowledge last night:

 

In my scenario, 3 frogfoot targets are at roughly 6kft.

Following advice, I go high and fast to maximise missile kinetics, so I can shoot without getting an R-60 in the face.

 

Looking from 24kft to 6kft, I actually didnt lose my locks this time, however, it was a challenge finding the targets and could only detect the at about 20km. (Yes, I was scanning the radar in elevation, no, not too fast.) Oh an I got the struck-through "PSIC" HUD message whilst attempting to STT for a short while, able to STT about halfway between detection at roughly 20km and firing cue at roughly 10km.

 

This is with a 19kft height differential and closing at around 700kts.

 

So height and speed didnt extend the range that much, but at least I am WAY out of the way of any short-range return fire, though by the time the first missile has reached the target, I am merged, so I bug out to use the second one.

 

I noticed that my lock dropped a short while after launching, I optimistically thought I had scored a kill, but on TacView analysis, it was spoofed by chaff. So I lost the lock, but at least that wasn't what trashed the shot.

 

On bugging out, I lose track of them, unable to re-acquire on the radar, calling for bogey dopes instead.

 

I eventually catch up to them, get another lock at around 17km, firing at around 10km again, and again, spoofed by chaff.

 

***

 

So, the range on this missile is never going to be that great, but at least you can get a shot off, and it keeps the enemy occupied until you get in close. Staying out of the furball and relying on the Super 530s would appear to be *not* a very effective thing to do if you actually want to score kills/deny airspace with the Mirage.

 

***

Luckily it seem I have not forgotten ALL of my ACM, as I managed to pull off this sweet barrel roll to tuck in behind one of the targets (it was super sweet) that presented himself and splashed him with 8 30mm rounds in a single burst (yeah, I was surprised too!). Another was taken out with my pair of Magics at point-blank range (one missed).

 

Having said that, TacView revealed 2 R-60 shots that just missed me, that I never knew about! I wasn't even dumping flares.

 

Did I mention that I left my canopy open on takeoff, so all of this was done in the fresh air? There was no noticeable effect on aerodynamics or drag, and my pilot stayed conscious the whole time, it was just noisy (except at >Mach1). I DO think I was able to hear one of those R-60s blast past me, though I didnt realise what it was at the time :)

 

Either way, this thread is about the 530 being sucky and it works fine if you use it correctly.

 

Weeeeellllll....it doesnt malfunction, if used correctly, I'll go that far :)

Edited May 18, 2017 by p1t1o

[lemoen]

Maybe its because of my ping or maybe it is the Blue Flag server and my ping. Others on BF complain too, if the enemy dares flying perpendicular to you the lock is broken immediately and without fail. I feel that it shouldn't be this easy to break lock once you have single target tracking going. It takes about 2-3 530s to bring down an enemy. Mostly because of the lock being broken.

[myHelljumper]

@p1t1o Are you sure you are talking about km ? The mirage uses nm, not km.

 

I disagree with you, the mirage is very useful at BVR and I most of my air kills in the mirage are done with 530D.

In fact I find that the Magics are much less reliable that the 530D and that the 2000 is not the best plane to furball with compared to the Su-27 or the Mig-29...

 

19kft of difference is a lot it will not help your shot, just try a same altitude head-on at 25ktf and you will see that you can get a (lucky) kill up to 18 nm.

 

@lemoen This is expected behavior, indeed a memory function could help but as soon as the target is flying perpendicular and below you lock is lost.

[p1t1o]

@p1t1o Are you sure you are talking about km ? The mirage uses nm, not km.

 

I disagree with you, the mirage is very useful at BVR and I most of my air kills in the mirage are done with 530D.

In fact I find that the Magics are much less reliable that the 530D and that the 2000 is not the best plane to furball with compared to the Su-27 or the Mig-29...

 

19kft of difference is a lot it will not help your shot, just try a same altitude head-on at 25ktf and you will see that you can get a (lucky) kill up to 18 nm.

 

Ah ok, all those figures are in nm then, so not quite as bad as first described. I dunno why I thought it was km...still, 10nm is not amazing. I'll test a high vs high altitude engagement when I get a chance.

 

Agreed that the Su and MiG are better in close, weapons wise at least, but I have had far more luck with Magics than 530s, though I still need more practice.

 

I dunno though, a strong height differential should give your missiles a good kinematic advantage, though perhaps newer missiles get more benefit with coast/dive trajectories (does the AMRAAM do this in DCS? It should. I havnt got the F15.) the 530 just dives straight towards the target.