dcs76 Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) During the work with ME I was missing tons of features which would make a mission/campaign designer's life less like hell ;-) I was wondering if anyone is aware of any tools/mods being able to help on this regard. I am mostly interested in consistency checks as well as clean up unnecessary content. Features I am looking for are: find/remove unreferenced audio files find/remove unreferenced/disabled trigger actions find logical issues with triggers/flags (e.g. triggers which will never be true) build/show tree/path of associated triggers/flags find actions which are triggered by different triggers allow to go through all VOs by playing them while displaying the corresponding text process visible mission text data through spell checker process visible mission text data through translator allow reordering triggered actions allow moving triggered actions to other entities allow reordering kneeboard images remove unsupported files from kneeboard allow to change hidden state of groups matching specific filter criteria check for/fix hidden state of enemy entities check for/fix hidden state of trigger zones If there are no tools/mods and if other people might be interested in those features as well, I might try and write something myself. My thought was to create a plugin/mod for the ME. However, I do not have any particular experience with Lua and/or DCS ME modding, so maybe I write some web service or standalone app. What would be the better choice if ME modding would be hard if not impossible to do? My main concern, however, would be if ED would be ok with such a tool or if they might even try to take actions (legal or otherwise) against a program which would be able to read and modify DCS mission files. If ED would welcome something like this, would they be willing to provide a documentation of the miz file format (at this moment, it's pretty much a zip file with readable text files)? Other concerns I have: How often and severe has this mission file format been updated/changed in the past. Are there plans to drastically change it in the foreseeable future? Edited December 3, 2018 by dcs76
feefifofum Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) find/remove unreferenced audio files - this is a default behavior find/remove unreferenced/disabled trigger actions - this is a default behavior find logical issues with triggers/flags (e.g. triggers which will never be true) triggers are often more complex than true/false statements. Not sure how you'd accomplish this build/show tree/path of associated triggers/flags - organizing properly while you build the mission will accomplish this find actions which are triggered by different triggers - such as what? again, organizing and labeling solves this allow to go through all VOs by playing them while displaying the corresponding text - text is not generated by the VO file, it is written separately by the mission's author. Generally one would organize these into the same trigger. For radio transmissions, they are already in the same place process visible mission text data through spell checker - this would be helpful, but can be done externally. copy/paste retains formatting process visible mission text data through translator - same as above allow reordering triggered actions - Already possible by default. allow moving triggered actions to other entities - Not sure why you'd want to do this, but you can copy/paste groups and their actions will carry over allow reordering kneeboard images http://www.dcskneeboardbuilder.com/ or numbering the images will accomplish this remove unsupported files from kneeboard - The kneeboard only supports image files. allow to change hidden state of groups matching specific filter criteria - Already possible using filters/sorting in unit list check for/fix hidden state of enemy entities - Already possible in unit list check for/fix hidden state of trigger zones - Already possible in trigger zone list Most of these features already exist...spend a little more time noodling in the ME. :thumbup: Edited December 3, 2018 by feefifofum THE GEORGIAN WAR - OFFICIAL F-15C DLC
dcs76 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Posted December 3, 2018 find/remove unreferenced audio files - this is a default behavior - Oh nice. Must have beem a user error by myself, when I experienced this. find/remove unreferenced/disabled trigger actions - this is a default behavior - Interesting. Where is this function to find unused/disabled trigger actions? Would love to use that, but cannot find it. find logical issues with triggers/flags (e.g. triggers which will never be true) triggers are often more complex than true/false statements. Not sure how you'd accomplish this - Agreed. a good structuring might help. If your mission is non-linear, though, and has some branching and alternatives built in, you are pretty much lost with the ME. The usual solution to that shortcoming is doing this with external tools, but then good luck with keeping those external documents in sync with the actual mission. Some quick-win check at the top of my head would be to show me any triggers waiting for flags to be set when there is no other action setting this particular flag for instance. That should be easily implemented. I can come up with a few more checks like those. (It would also be nice to double click on a trigger condition; eg. FLAG 120 set to true and ME navigates me to the action which actually sets this FLAG to true. It would be near to impossible when lua scripts are involved ofc, but usual trigger actions should be working.) build/show tree/path of associated triggers/flags - organizing properly while you build the mission will accomplish this Again, this is non-trivial when dealing with alternative routes and branching. find actions which are triggered by different triggers - such as what? again, organizing and labeling solves this - Same. allow to go through all VOs by playing them while displaying the corresponding text - text is not generated by the VO file, it is written separately by the mission's author. Generally one would organize these into the same trigger. For radio transmissions, they are already in the same place - And still mistakes can be made. Once a mixup is done, you don't have an easy way to show the currently associated texts and VOs. From experience I know that it is difficult to look through all Texts/VO associations within ME. process visible mission text data through spell checker - this would be helpful, but can be done externally. copy/paste retains formatting - Yeah I know and this is the only way to do it right now. Copy&paste is error prone. All manual work is error prone and I like minimizing this. process visible mission text data through translator - same as above allow reordering triggered actions - Already possible by default. I know for a fact that as soon as I reorder one triggered action, its reference within the trigger list is NOT updated. Triggers are referencing trigger actions via their index. If an action is moved (or removed), the trigger simply still points to that index and references a completely different action. Maybe you misunderstood me. I mean actions like AI TASK PUSH or AI TASK SET which reference actions within mission units. allow moving triggered actions to other entities - Not sure why you'd want to do this, but you can copy/paste groups and their actions will carry over - Again, talking about unit actions. And sure, you can move them, but again will loose the reference within the trigger list. allow reordering kneeboard images http://www.dcskneeboardbuilder.com/ or numbering the images will accomplish this - Or sorry I did not mean KNEEBOARD images, but mission briefing images. remove unsupported files from kneeboard - The kneeboard only supports image files. - Still, ME does not prevent user from dropping/selecting unsupported files there. Typical user error: also drop folder with hidden files (desktop.ini) in it. allow to change hidden state of groups matching specific filter criteria - Already possible using filters/sorting in unit list HOW? I'd love to know how to do that. I usually have to double click manually through all of the groups. How can I do that with just a couple clicks for all the items shown in the unit list? check for/fix hidden state of enemy entities - Already possible in unit list You mean by scrolling down (again manually) through the extensive list and look for Status column to show HIDDEN or not? check for/fix hidden state of trigger zones - Already possible in trigger zone list - Again manually? Most of these features already exist...spend a little more time noodling in the ME. :thumbup: I agree that most of the items I mentioned can be achieved in some way or the other with ME. However, I would not call something a feature if it requires manual work by the user. As soon as manual labor is involved, errors are made. We are human after all. If some of those points can really be done automatically by ME, I would love to get more details on how to do it. So far, I could not find this information in the DCS documentation.
feefifofum Posted December 4, 2018 Posted December 4, 2018 (edited) Q: Where is this function to find unused/disabled trigger actions? Would love to use that, but cannot find it A: This happens automatically. Create a trigger with a name, type, and conditions but no action. Close the trigger menu. Re-open the trigger menu and you'll find the erroneous trigger has been deleted RE: logic tree...we'll have to agree to disagree that it is possible to easily organize these. :lol: Almost every mission in TGW involves branching dialogues and outcomes. I just note flag numbers in the name of the trigger itself, and further subdivide sections with garbage triggers to create visual markers 1 ONCE (===========PLAYER RTB MESSAGES==========, NO EVENT) 1 ONCE (RTB Kutaisi Bombed FL861, NO EVENT) 1 ONCE (RTB Kut Bombed MSG 2, NO EVENT) 1 ONCE (RTB Kut Bombed MSG 3, NO EVENT) etc. 1 ONCE (RTB Kutaisi Defended FL862, NO EVENT) 1 ONCE (RTB Kut Safe MSG 2, NO EVENT) etc. I can simply look back at the previous, well notated section and quickly see which flags were set when each of the conditions were met, build in exclusivity in dialogue trees, etc. RE: VOs You have no way of knowing which texts are associated with which VO files, outside of a radio transmission where they are already in the same place. Speech to text is spotty at best, especially considering you'll be dealing with heavily processed files altered to sound like radio transmissions in most cases. What if you play sound effects as many people do rather than individual voiceover files? Either your tool sends a bunch of false hits because every message is associated with the same .wav or .ogg file, or it simply points to a trigger that already contains a SOUND TO and MESSAGE TO function in the same place...which you can do by clicking the trigger in the ME already. RE: re-ordering hierarchies I can think of as many times where this would shoot you in the foot as times it would help. I did misunderstand what you were saying, but I still personally don't feel any need to re-order tasks added to triggered actions, as they are triggered manually and easily labeled. As far advanced waypoint actions, re-ordering those is easily done with the UP/DOWN button to affect task priorities :dunno: RE: Briefing images there is an arrow icon next to each image that will allow you to reorder them as desired. Q: HOW? I'd love to know how to do that. I usually have to double click manually through all of the groups. How can I do that with just a couple clicks for all the items shown in the unit list? A: For all the groups, no, but you can filter by unit type and coalition so that only red planes that are not already hidden are shown, or all red vehicle groups containing an MBT T-72, for example. As DCS missions do not support millions of units, this is a reasonably fast approach. Q: You mean by scrolling down (again manually) through the extensive list and look for Status column to show HIDDEN or not? A: Click that column that says HIDDEN to sort groups by whether or not they are hidden Q: check for/fix hidden state of trigger zones - Already possible in trigger zone list - Again manually? A: There is a "HIDE ALL" and "SHOW ALL" button in the trigger zone list. If these are things that you feel are major quality of life improvements by all means invest the time, and thanks for your efforts, but to me none of the points you address are particularly grating. Edited December 4, 2018 by feefifofum THE GEORGIAN WAR - OFFICIAL F-15C DLC
dcs76 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Posted December 4, 2018 RE: find/remove unused/disabled triggered actions. Misunderstanding again :-) I meant the triggered actions which can configured for units and then referenced with for example AI TASK PUSH. Also VO files are not removed as long as there is a triggered action referencing it, even though it's disabled/unused. I would like to have a function to remove those artefacts. But let's please put aside the arguing of the usability (or lack thereof) of ME features for a moment. As I stated with my initial post, my main concern is what ED's standpoint would be of an external tool being able to read, parse and update mission files. Would they be ok with such a tool or would they take measures against? Would they be willing to share information about the mission file format to help creating those tools? Who could answer those questions? What would be the proper channel to get this clarified? I would love to have an official statement from an ED representative.
feefifofum Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) I know what you meant. Like I said, agree to disagree...all I can say is with my process the times I've gone to the trouble of recording, processing and adding a VO to a triggered action and then not used it is exactly zero. :lol: In any case, ED has not had any issue with unofficial mods of this nature in the past. If you were to try to charge there may be a problem without their consent, but CombatFlite already offers the ability to auto-generate kneeboards, briefings, and make other modifications to .miz files (including programming them exclusively in the CombatFlite app) and ED has not intervened. You can PM NineLine if you feel the need to ask the team directly and he'll pass it up the chain. Edited December 5, 2018 by feefifofum THE GEORGIAN WAR - OFFICIAL F-15C DLC
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