Banzaiib Posted July 24, 2019 Posted July 24, 2019 My question is, what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner on a test stand (not moving), and what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner as the aircraft approaches and exceeds mach 1? Wikipedia and a few other sites state that the TF30 made about 20,840 lbs of thrust, while the F-110-400 made around 30,000 lbs of thrust... but I suspect that's comparing apples to oranges. The F-110-400 only made about 23,400 lbs of thrust on the stand, and only rose to 30k lbs. as the aircraft approached mach 1. I've heard that the TF30 made closer to 27,000 lbs of thrust at mach 1, but I'm wondering if that is accurate.
Sierra99 Posted July 24, 2019 Posted July 24, 2019 My question is, what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner on a test stand (not moving), and what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner as the aircraft approaches and exceeds mach 1? Wikipedia and a few other sites state that the TF30 made about 20,840 lbs of thrust, while the F-110-400 made around 30,000 lbs of thrust... but I suspect that's comparing apples to oranges. The F-110-400 only made about 23,400 lbs of thrust on the stand, and only rose to 30k lbs. as the aircraft approached mach 1. I've heard that the TF30 made closer to 27,000 lbs of thrust at mach 1, but I'm wondering if that is accurate. You need to look for an A model NATOPS Manual. The performance section would have the info you seek. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Primary Computer ASUS Z390-P, i7-9700K CPU @ 5.0Ghz, 32GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4 @ 3200Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce 1070 Ti AMP Extreme, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe drives (1Tb & 500 Gb), Windows 10 Professional, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Warthog Stick, Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle, Cougar MFDs x3, Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals and TrackIR 5. -={TAC}=-DCS Server Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3, i7-3770K CPU @ 3.90GHz, 32GB G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 @ 1600Mhz, ZOTAC GeForce® GTX 970.
SgtPappy Posted July 24, 2019 Posted July 24, 2019 My question is, what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner on a test stand (not moving), and what is the thrust of a TF30 at full afterburner as the aircraft approaches and exceeds mach 1? Wikipedia and a few other sites state that the TF30 made about 20,840 lbs of thrust, while the F-110-400 made around 30,000 lbs of thrust... but I suspect that's comparing apples to oranges. The F-110-400 only made about 23,400 lbs of thrust on the stand, and only rose to 30k lbs. as the aircraft approached mach 1. I've heard that the TF30 made closer to 27,000 lbs of thrust at mach 1, but I'm wondering if that is accurate. So I have had this discussion a few times with the amazing guys here and on Reddit. Static, SL thrust at full burner for the TF30-P-414A (all of them really) is ~20,840 - 20,900 lbf of thrust. Installed, static SL thrust is ~17,077 lbf of thrust. I am not to sure if it really is apples to oranges - they are both turbofan engines installed in the same aircraft - but the installed thrust of the F110-GE-400 I think was only 23,400 lbf or so while the uninstalled thrust was closer to 28,000 lbf. I take these numbers with a generous ±100 lbf or so but you get the idea. Indeed, the ram air effect starts to give more thrust at supersonic speeds, and I believe it was Okie that ballparked it around 28,000 lbf past Mach 1 at lower altitudes. I unfortunately do not have the plots to show these figures.
Banzaiib Posted July 25, 2019 Author Posted July 25, 2019 You need to look for an A model NATOPS Manual. The performance section would have the info you seek. Pretty typical response... but if it was so easy to find, I'd have already found it. If you have the pre 80's f-14A NATOPS that has the answer to my question, then by all means, pass it along (that's forum rules compliant of course). But i reckon you don't. @SGT Pappy, yeah, wikipedia says the F-110 is a 30% thrust upgrade, but there's no way... 12-15% maybe (and minus all the compressor stalls)... I'm curious what HB has to say about this.
Quid Posted July 25, 2019 Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On a test stand, the engine is drawing air without an inlet obstructing it. So, the quoted 20,800lbs for the TF-30 is higher than when installed in the aircraft at static, same with the F-110-GE-400's 27,600lbs. The Wikipedia page actually just copies the information from the F-14D's NATOPS regarding the F-110-GE-400: 23,400lbs installed at a stand-still, 30,200lbs installed .9M. Now, the nice thing is that Google Books has a portion of the F-14A's NATOPS manual that was released to the open source world which you can buy on Amazon, including the section on thrust. Installed, the TF-30P-414 produces 17,077lbs at a stand-still (10,875lbs at mil power). The NATOPS doesn't discuss thrust at .9M at sea level, but since about 1975, the TF-30's thrust in that region has been published in the open-source world (TAB Aero Series 25, Grumman F-14 cites it). The TF-30's installed thrust at .9M is approximately 28,000lbs at sea level (not exact). So, at 0.0M and 0.9M at sea level, the TF-30 does: 17,077 - 28,000lbs The F-110 does: 23,400 - 30,200lbs The thing is, these are single-points of performance. Engine thrust is dynamic and is affected by airspeed, altitude, g, computer controls, atmospheric conditions, etc, so having two points separated by .9M at a common altitude isn't going to give you the full picture of the engines' relative performance. Edited July 25, 2019 by Quid Rig: i9 10900KF @5.3GHz | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 3600MHz | ASUS ROG STRIX RTX 3090 24GB OC | ASUS Maximus XII Formula | 2x 2TB Intel SSD6 NVMe M.2 | VKB F-14CG on Gunfighter III Base | TM Warthog HOTAS | TM Rudder Pedals | HP Reverb G2 Hangar: FC3 | F-86F | F-4E [Pre-Ordered] | F-5E | F-14A/B | F-15E | F-16C | F/A-18C | Mirage 2000C | JF-17 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19P | MiG-21bis | AJS-37 | AV-8B | L39 | C-101 | A-10C/CII | Yak-52 | P-51D | P-47D | Fw 190 A-8/D-9 | Bf 109 | Spitfire | I-16 | UH-1 Huey
SgtPappy Posted July 25, 2019 Posted July 25, 2019 On a test stand, the engine is drawing air without an inlet obstructing it. So, the quoted 20,800lbs for the TF-30 is higher than when installed in the aircraft at static, same with the F-110-GE-400's 27,600lbs. The Wikipedia page actually just copies the information from the F-14D's NATOPS regarding the F-110-GE-400: 23,400lbs installed at a stand-still, 30,200lbs installed .9M. . To add to all your points, I found a previous discussion on this 4 years ago citing Gilchrist: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2534677&postcount=24 The whole discussion is here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=149144
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