RWR

[Chiron]

what is RWR refresh rate or Delay time ???

 

Cuz i feel something is not right its slow in spot missile movement and also missile location specially when i pull some hard maneuver and stabilize my plane missile location was a bit spooky

 

 

 

is this behavior right ?

 

example 1 :

 

https://gyazo.com/e1715b99db901434b978682f05553d4e

 

my heading here 317

 

here is the missile correct heading as i am diving down slightly to the right . then .

 

https://gyazo.com/28f2ac900182d027ee69f9815e4d0f0e

 

my heading here 326

 

missile appear on my 3 clock but its on my 9 as u can see the target that i locked this where the missile is coming ( i dont understand it )

 

https://gyazo.com/ac0d8d0c56a263f5db0f81990b74b07d

 

here the missile before he hit me in the first circle and seems far and that is not the destination between me and my missile ,,,,,, first i find it odd even if i zoomed in and out . cuz if RWR + SPJ measure destination related to signal strength this missile supposed to be same as my position

 

Example 2 :

 

https://gyazo.com/4ab77169005920a9f9603646903d7629

 

missile here active at the same as target location Distance is wrong again

 

i want to share a lot of pictures but i think u catch the idea

 

in the second battle

 

in JF-17 RWR it supposed to tell me if the missile below me or higher than me and that is not happen every except if the missile behind me so ............... is this function related to MAW only ?

 

is RWR linked to Datalink Zoom in and out ???

what is the refresh rate or delay time in RWR ????

when it calculate distance in RWR ... is it supposed to be linked to Datalink also ? Cuz it seem detecting missile at the same separation as target and if it measure the distance related to signal power so the missile is stronger and also near

 

about missile distance maybe i am wrong cuz everytime i compare with DEKA Video about missile movement refresh rate

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chiron

[AeriaGloria]

I watched it up to your first death, don’t know if there’s others you want looked at but I can look if you provide a time code.

 

The RWR has 10 degree horizontal accuracy, and ability to see +45/-45 degrees in elevation. So if a missile is above that or any radar emitter it won’t be seen. I’m addition your RWR does not talk to HSD, they are just over layed. So if you are inverted going north and a missile shows up on the left side of RWR, it is likely coming from east and not the west . All it displays is which 10 degree slice of the 90 degree elevation coverage the emitter is in. Any RWR signal on the left is actually the left side of your plane, not west.

 

If that doesn’t help you I probably misunderstand what you mean. What exactly is it doing wrong?

Edited June 24, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Chiron]

I watched it up to your first death, don’t know if there’s others you want looked at but I can look if you provide a time code.

 

The RWR has 10 degree horizontal accuracy, and ability to see +45/-45 degrees in elevation. So if a missile is above that or any radar emitter it won’t be seen. I’m addition your RWR does not talk to HSD, they are just over layed. So if you are inverted going north and a missile shows up on the left side of RWR, it is likely coming from east and not the west . All it displays is which 10 degree slice of the 90 degree elevation coverage the emitter is in. Any RWR signal on the left is actually the left side of your plane, not west.

 

If that doesn’t help you I probably misunderstand what you mean. What exactly is it doing wrong?

 

i edited my first post .. maybe i am mistaken about somethings but i see refresh rate is slow in observing missile movement

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chiron

[AeriaGloria]

Okay,

 

SPJ only measures range if missile is in 30 degree come in front or behind you and takes five seconds of continuous lock. So outside of those situations it will only place the threat rings as it fancies

 

Elevation is only measured by MAWS, so you won’t see it on any radar missiles

 

Have you checked tac view or the track? The new AMRAAM can make tight turns but loses a lot of speed, if it loses lock it it will go for last intercept point and sometimes can re lock you and annoy you even if it’s falling to the earth at 800kmh.

 

As I tried to say in my first post, HSD/compass does not talk to RWR at all. RWR has no idea of magnetic or compass bearing, it just says “missile is in this 10 degree slice of space relative to the plane.” So yes if your inverted it will show reverse directions. If you fly a 90 degree bank right hand turn anything showing up on the east side of HSD as RWR contact is actually below you, and anything on left side of RWR as emitter is actually above you. RWR only cares about emitters relative to the aircraft attitude, not HSD.

 

If it does get range it is only slant range, and still won’t have accurate location on HSD unless you are level and at co altitude. If you are level and everything emitting is co altitudes de that is the only time the directions and distances(if SPJ can range them) on HSD will line up perfectly.

 

Think of them as two entirely separate displays just merged Together for convenience. They don’t actually talk to each other on any way. The HSD is shown in a heading stabilized fashion, only heading change can move it. With RWR any pitch or roll will cause a change in the covered area, and the emitter we will no longer line up and show same bearing as HSD.

 

Does any of this make sense? RWR knows nothing about your roll and pitch, it is a fixed box on your vertical stabilizer, it does not move at all, and it can’t use any pitch or roll information to make contacts align on HSD

Edited June 25, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Chiron]

Okay,

 

SPJ only measures range if missile is in 30 degree come in front or behind you and takes five seconds of continuous lock. So outside of those situations it will only place the threat rings as it fancies

 

Elevation is only measured by MAWS, so you won’t see it on any radar missiles

 

Have you checked tac view or the track? The new AMRAAM can make tight turns but loses a lot of speed, if it loses lock it it will go for last intercept point and sometimes can re lock you and annoy you even if it’s falling to the earth at 800kmh.

 

As I tried to say in my first post, HSD/compass does not talk to RWR at all. RWR has no idea of magnetic or compass bearing, it just says “missile is in this 10 degree slice of space relative to the plane.” So yes if your inverted it will show reverse directions. If you fly a 90 degree bank right hand turn anything showing up on the east side of HSD as RWR contact is actually below you, and anything on left side of RWR as emitter is actually above you. RWR only cares about emitters relative to the aircraft attitude, not HSD.

 

If it does get range it is only slant range, and still won’t have accurate location on HSD unless you are level and at co altitude. If you are level and everything emitting is co altitudes de that is the only time the directions and distances(if SPJ can range them) on HSD will line up perfectly.

 

Think of them as two entirely separate displays just merged Together for convenience. They don’t actually talk to each other on any way. The HSD is shown in a heading stabilized fashion, only heading change can move it. With RWR any pitch or roll will cause a change in the covered area, and the emitter we will no longer line up and show same bearing as HSD.

 

Does any of this make sense? RWR knows nothing about your roll and pitch, it is a fixed box on your vertical stabilizer, it does not move at all, and it can’t use any pitch or roll information to make contacts align on HSD

 

ok ....... looks like i misjudge RWR

 

so lets back to range u said when Aim-120 lose lock ( are u sure this baster can lose lock ever :lol::lol: ) cuz i dont think so and the missile approach and RWR not refreshing this attitude the moment missile is approaching

 

missile is coming with SPJ on it supposed to gave accurate range

 

and there is a moments in this video i put the missile on my 6 clock and MAWS is not picking the missile ( the elevation stuff ) first missile in second fight when MAW pick the missile ( missile was on my six but heading to the opposite direction )

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chiron

[AeriaGloria]

Not refreshing?

 

It only shows range if missile spent five seconds locking you from 30 degrees in front of you or behind you. In your screen shots missiles is 45 degrees or more so it can’t calculate range even after five seconds.

 

Probably has to do with the fact it only has those two main antennas that are fixed forward. So don’t expect range to ever be calculated outside of those conditions, about 30 degrees close to nose or tail bearing for five seconds

[Chiron]

Not refreshing?

 

It only shows range if missile spent five seconds locking you from 30 degrees in front of you or behind you. In your screen shots missiles is 45 degrees or more so it can’t calculate range even after five seconds.

 

Probably has to do with the fact it only has those two main antennas that are fixed forward. So don’t expect range to ever be calculated outside of those conditions, about 30 degrees close to nose or tail bearing for five seconds

 

hmmm ..... ok thx

[AeriaGloria]

And if you think it should work better becuase of Deka RWR video, that is likely a pre release without the final intended functionality and limits

[Chiron]

And if you think it should work better becuase of Deka RWR video, that is likely a pre release without the final intended functionality and limits

 

yea u told me that before

[Chiron]

and there is a moments in this video i put the missile on my 6 clock and MAWS is not picking the missile ( the elevation stuff ) first missile in second fight when MAW pick the missile ( missile was on my six but heading to the opposite direction )

 

how MAW work ?

[AeriaGloria]

and there is a moments in this video i put the missile on my 6 clock and MAWS is not picking the missile ( the elevation stuff ) first missile in second fight when MAW pick the missile ( missile was on my six but heading to the opposite direction )

 

how MAW work ?

 

Say we are talking about AIM-120.

 

If you are locked and within RWR zone limits it will show as 120. However if you are not locked but it’s in MAWS detection zone it will show as [ M ] with the elevation cues. Conversely, if it does have you locked, but if it’s coming from greater then 45 degrees above or below you so that RWR can’t see it but within the almost 180 degree detection zone of MAWS, it will also show as [ M ] with elevation cue.

 

Basically if MAWS detects it it will [ M ] plus elevation cue if applicable, but if the RWR detects missile lock from that same missile the [120] symbol with no elevation cue will override any symbol from MAWS. Radar lock always overrides MAWS symbol, and without [ M ] symbol you won’t have elevation cue. It’s only one or the other, you can never have elevation and radar missile symbol at same time

 

One of the few advantages SPO-15 has. But hey, the Spanish were just doing what every other NATO RWR does:)

[Chiron]

Say we are talking about AIM-120.

 

If you are locked and within RWR zone limits it will show as 120. However if you are not locked but it’s in MAWS detection zone it will show as [ M ] with the elevation cues. Conversely, if it does have you locked, but if it’s coming from greater then 45 degrees above or below you so that RWR can’t see it but within the almost 180 degree detection zone of MAWS, it will also show as [ M ] with elevation cue.

 

Basically if MAWS detects it it will [ M ] plus elevation cue if applicable, but if the RWR detects missile lock from that same missile the [120] symbol with no elevation cue will override any symbol from MAWS. Radar lock always overrides MAWS symbol, and without [ M ] symbol you won’t have elevation cue. It’s only one or the other, you can never have elevation and radar missile symbol at same time

 

One of the few advantages SPO-15 has. But hey, the Spanish were just doing what every other NATO RWR does:)

 

ok got thx so much fo clarifying this cuz i was putting the missile on my six to know the elevation looks like i was wrong

[Chiron]

Back To MAW again i saw in a book that talk about JF-17 specs that MAW can capabile off provide u with TTI ( Time to impact )

 

https://books.google.com.kw/books?id=CYqnBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=JF-17+RWR&source=bl&ots=7ctpyi7rqT&sig=ACfU3U33pspLgvxr6U9Epf3aBiTgfmr-iQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjepf3phJzqAhWEzqQKHbORBuUQ6AEwCXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=JF-17%20RWR&f=false

 

Page 80 - 81

 

and i think also he is talking about Block I ..... imagine what Block II can be in situation awareness

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chiron

[AeriaGloria]

No that book is complete bullsh*t, it’s completely wrong about that and many other things. Gf you read what’s else in their you will realize it is not something to be trusted

 

I thought the book was maybe accurate, so I trusted it and realized on release day how bullsh*t it was. It’s common for these lower end UV MAWS to not have distance or TTI, that’s something you would probably only ever see on the highest end of infra red and radar MAWS.

 

Don’t trust it

[AeriaGloria]

Haha, case in point. It says PL-9 and A-Darter can be loaded. It’s a grab bag of speculative what ifs. They probably read some PAF official say “one day we would like to integrate other weapons like A-darter” and then said to themselves “I should write that it can carry A-darter and PL-9 becuase why not”

 

Not to mention it says there are “several” MAWS cameras:megalol:

 

And navigation FLIR imagery on HUD! They probably read someone from Chengdu say “if customer likes we can have FLIR imagery on HUD” and the author said to them self “it means it can put FLIR image on HUD right now!” When it actually means “we haven’t actually made it possible to put FLIR on the HUD, but if a customer requires it and can pay for the option we can work to have it function”

 

As usual, the fever pitch of usual JF-17 discourse means there’s a lot of false info out there

Edited June 25, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Chiron]

Haha, case in point. It says PL-9 and A-Darter can be loaded. It’s a grab bag of speculative what ifs. They probably read some PAF official say “one day we would like to integrate other weapons like A-darter” and then said to themselves “I should write that it can carry A-darter and PL-9 becuase why not”

 

Not to mention it says there are “several” MAWS cameras:megalol:

 

And navigation FLIR imagery on HUD! They probably read someone from Chengdu say “if customer likes we can have FLIR imagery on HUD” and the author said to them self “it means it can put FLIR image on HUD right now!” When it actually means “we haven’t actually made it possible to put FLIR on the HUD, but if a customer requires it and can pay for the option we can work to have it function”

 

As usual, the fever pitch of usual JF-17 discourse means there’s a lot of false info out there

TBH a lot of Public platform talk about JF-17 can use PL-9 not just this book

 

also this book JF-17 Thunder: The Making of a Modern Cost-effective Multi-role Combat

 

even Wiki says

 

Air-to-air missiles:

PL-5EII (within visual range missile)

PL-9C (WVR missile)

AIM-9L/M Sidewinder (Short-range)

PL-8 (Short-range)

PL-15 ( Very Long range Beyond Visual range missile)

R-Darter (beyond visual range missile)

SD-10A (PL-12 export version) (beyond visual range missile)[205]

 

 

as i know even JF-17 block II can't launch PL-15 due to range limitation even if Block II can carry PL-15

 

all u can do is Dig in Public platform cuz we will not have any sort of access to any military information

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chiron

[AeriaGloria]

Which makes this simulation the best resource there is.

 

You say there are other places that give same wrong information, it is all for the same reason. Misinformation, fanbois that think future maybe plans mean current capability or “folk tales” and myths about things that like PL-8 capability that one person said at one time(completely wrong) and it spread and now people believe it becuase it’s even on wiki.

 

I have no reason to trust any wiki unless I look at the individual source used. Do you see any source citations next to PL-8, or A-darter? Or Pl-15? No you don’t see source citations next to them becuase the people that wrote that have no proof and it’s just speculation that “PL-8 is the next best thing it has to work on JF-17 looks this brochure says it’s compatible with 1553” or “they said they would like to add A-darter capability so it’s going to happen soon and I’ll put it on wiki becuase obviously this will be true eventually.”

 

There’s no source citations for those entries becuase there’s no proof, and you would probably see colored warning on the Wikipedia page itself telling you “these parts have missing citations.” So you have no reason to trust it. Go on Pakistan Defence and see how crazy some of them can be taking every word someone says as fact. There’s some great info there if you look deep, some good people as well as first hand info and photos, but also a lot of nonsense.

 

So you have to be careful Chiron, don’t just believe everything you see on wiki or in a book unless they show you evidence of their claims. Especially around topics like this that are the Center of internet information wars waged by keyboard warriors that are sometimes not so smart or too quick to jump to conclusions

 

I mean you’ve seen what usually happens in comment sections of any internet article post or video about Pakistan and India right? Just imagine that but people trying to prove their plane is better then your plane, you will end up with many people believing or saying crazy things

Edited June 25, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Chiron]

Which makes this simulation the best resource there is.

 

You say there are other places that give same wrong information, it is all for the same reason. Misinformation, fanbois that think future maybe plans mean current capability or “folk tales” and myths about things that like PL-8 capability that one person said at one time(completely wrong) and it spread and now people believe it becuase it’s even on wiki.

 

I have no reason to trust any wiki unless I look at the individual source used. Do you see any source citations next to PL-8, or A-darter? Or Pl-15? No you don’t see source citations next to them becuase the people that wrote that have no proof and it’s just speculation that “PL-8 is the next best thing it has to work on JF-17 looks this brochure says it’s compatible with 1553” or “they said they would like to add A-darter capability so it’s going to happen soon and I’ll put it on wiki becuase obviously this will be true eventually.”

 

There’s no source citations for those entries becuase there’s no proof, and you would probably see colored warning on the Wikipedia page itself telling you “these parts have missing citations.” So you have no reason to trust it. Go on Pakistan Defence and see how crazy some of them can be taking every word someone says as fact. There’s some great info there if you look deep, some good people as well as first hand info and photos, but also a lot of nonsense.

 

So you have to be careful Chiron, don’t just believe everything you see on wiki or in a book unless they show you evidence of their claims. Especially around topics like this that are the Center of internet information wars waged by keyboard warriors that are sometimes not so smart or too quick to jump to conclusions

 

I mean you’ve seen what usually happens in comment sections of any internet article post or video about Pakistan and India right? Just imagine that but people trying to prove their plane is better then your plane, you will end up with many people believing or saying crazy things

 

yup i also saw some nonsense stuff in Pakistan Defence but i loved it there so much pictures for JF-17 specially with Ra'ad but there is no any evidence about PL-8 or PL-15 in pictures only PL-5 and SD-10 nothing more