Oversaturation for axis in helicopters

[jonsky7]

So I've had an idea but I can't test it because I don't know how to implement it.

 

When flying helicopters in DCS with consumer level self-centering non FFB joysticks we have to live with some drawbacks compared to helicopters in real life. Mainly that once trimmed, you lose the ability to fully deflect the cyclic, which I assume is not the case in a real helicopter.

 

For example, flying the Huey in fast forward flight requires a lot of forward cyclic input, so you hit the force trim and the cyclic is held forward which is great. But now when you pull full aft on your joystick, the in game cyclic only moves slight aft of the centre position and not all the way back. Same for left and right.

I know that on the large airliners I work on, aileron trim adjusts the centering cam position of the control wheel, and it will sit on a tilt, but you can still fully turn the wheel in either direction.

 

What I thought might work is to be able to over saturate the axis in much the same way as we can under saturate them now, so you could move the slider to 150% or whatever. This would obviously mean that the in game cyclic stick would reach its limit before you hit the travel stop of your actual on desk joystick, it would however enable full deflection of the cyclic when force trim is applied.

 

Is there a lua file I could edit to test it?

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, jonsky7 said:

What I thought might work is to be able to over saturate the axis in much the same way as we can under saturate them now, so you could move the slider to 150% or whatever. This would obviously mean that the in game cyclic stick would reach its limit before you hit the travel stop of your actual on desk joystick, it would however enable full deflection of the cyclic when force trim is applied.

 

Is there a lua file I could edit to test it?

 

You can try it already in the settings using another axis saturation. 

 

One saturation axis will lower your joystick ratio relative to virtual stick. 

Other saturation axis will increase joystick ratio relative to virtual stick. 

 

 

I don't remember from first hand was it Y saturation that will lower your ratio (the blue line rotates more horizontal) meaning your red dot can not anymore reach full top / bottom edges. 

If you put saturation Y to 60%, then it means that with 100% joystick deflection you have virtual stick only at 60%. 

 

Of course in helicopters this is bad thin as you just cut 40% of the cyclic movement range away. 

 

So, using Saturation X you should be able increase the ratio (the blue line rotates more vertical) and no your red dot reaches the top/bottom much faster. 

So if you set it to 60% in the settings, then you need to move your joystick only to 60% position before virtual stick has already reached 100%, so full deflection. And it doesn't care if you move joystick further as virtual stick is there. 

 

Edit: Meaning that X saturation will change ratio between physical -> virtual and Y saturation will change virtual -> physical. 

 

You can even make it so by adjusting both to 50% that you need to move joystick to 50% of its deflection to reach full virtual stick deflection, but you have just limited it to 50% range so you can never reach over 50% virtual deflection.

 

Simply put, you just made stick again 1:1 ratio but you cut yourself to 50% joystick movement and in game. 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Fri13

[jonsky7]

3 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

You can try it already in the settings using another axis saturation. 

 

One saturation axis will lower your joystick ratio relative to virtual stick. 

Other saturation axis will increase joystick ratio relative to virtual stick. 

 

 

I don't remember from first hand was it Y saturation that will lower your ratio (the blue line rotates more horizontal) meaning your red dot can not anymore reach full top / bottom edges. 

If you put saturation Y to 60%, then it means that with 100% joystick deflection you have virtual stick only at 60%. 

 

Of course in helicopters this is bad thin as you just cut 40% of the cyclic movement range away. 

 

So, using Saturation X you should be able increase the ratio (the blue line rotates more vertical) and no your red dot reaches the top/bottom much faster. 

So if you set it to 60% in the settings, then you need to move your joystick only to 60% position before virtual stick has already reached 100%, so full deflection. And it doesn't care if you move joystick further as virtual stick is there. 

 

Edit: Meaning that X saturation will change ratio between physical -> virtual and Y saturation will change virtual -> physical. 

 

You can even make it so by adjusting both to 50% that you need to move joystick to 50% of its deflection to reach full virtual stick deflection, but you have just limited it to 50% range so you can never reach over 50% virtual deflection.

 

Simply put, you just made stick again 1:1 ratio but you cut yourself to 50% joystick movement and in game. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for you input, however as you say, that doesn't actually increase the range of saturation, there's a limit at 100%.

 

It's the Saturation_Y I would like to be able to extend.

[Fri13]

10 hours ago, jonsky7 said:

 

Thanks for you input, however as you say, that doesn't actually increase the range of saturation, there's a limit at 100%.

 

It's the Saturation_Y I would like to be able to extend.

 

You extend the axis by using the X Saturation as I explained.

 

The X and Y does not correspond the gaming device or virtual controller axis. It is only presenting the Axis tune panel white box relativeness.

The red dot that moves horizontally is your real device axis.

The black dot is presenting how will the virtual device move relative to your real axis movement.

The another red dot that sticks to blue line and moves vertically as well is just linked to the axis presented blue line to visually show you the exact position so you don't need to try to plot it there.

 

You want to concentrate that how you will get black box from left to right. That is virtual axis full movement scale.

And how is the red dot (horizontal) moving with it as that is your physical joystick axis.

 

 

In the end you can see that if you set Saturation X to 80% then it means you have just given 20% more input for physical axis as the virtual axis will reach full virtual deflection 20% faster than real one.

 

Example with a physical joystick to virtual cyclic the black box will stay at the center when your joystick is centered in the axis. If you fully push joystick to one side then block will move to either left or right edge of the white area. The red dot moves with it meaning it is 1:1 ratio constantly.

 

All the settings on the right you are manipulating that black box. How will it move from left to right relative to your physical joystick that is represented by a red dot. Always when you move joystick from one end to another the red dot will move from left to right.

What you want is that black box would reach left and right edges sooner than the red dot does. That means you would need to move physical joystick less to get virtual cyclic reach its full deflection. If you have X saturation set to 80% then it means your joystick needs to be at 80% of its physical movement range when the virtual cyclic will reach 100% position.

 

Now if you trim your helicopter so it moves virtual cyclic 20% forward (it is in 0-100% scale now at 70% position as 50% is center) and you are required to recenter joystick to apply trimmer, now you just lost that 20% as you have said. Now if you would need to pull joystick backward because you need to move cyclic backward, you can reach the joystick physical limit (0% in 0-100% scale) when the virtual cyclic reach only a 20% of position.

 

How you can make the joystick have that extra 20% is to apply X saturation so you have that 20% extra in physical one. 

It will make your virtual joystick 20% more sensitive although, and  might not be what you want for normal flying.

 

What you really need to do is to learn to trim with multiple presses. So Move -> Trim -> center -> Move-> Trim -> center -> Move -> Trim -> Center. 

The only other option is really to get a non-centering joystick so you don't need to use "Center-Trim" function that is unrealistic but required for spring loaded joysticks. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Fri13

[jonsky7]

 

From your video at 1:25 mark
The problem is that when you set Saturation X to 80%, the virtual axis Y doesn't go to 120%, it just hits the limit of 100% before you hit 100% on your physical axis. 

That is the reason for my suggestion.

 

Saturation X set to 50, virtual joystick has a Y limit of 100.

 

 

What I propose is being able to set Saturation Y to 150, and maybe something like this red box appears to show you where the 100% virtual axis limit is.

So when you are using force trim, you can still achieve more or full virtual axis deflection.

 

 

 

Quote

What you really need to do is to learn to trim with multiple presses. So Move -> Trim -> center -> Move-> Trim -> center -> Move -> Trim -> Center. 

The only other option is really to get a non-centering joystick so you don't need to use "Center-Trim" function that is unrealistic but required for spring loaded joysticks.

 

Well that is what we do now yes, I was just looking to see if there something that may be better.