Bombing/Carpet bombing task not the way it used to be/should be.

[FuY]

Bombing tasks,
F/A-18 2x2 GBU-31 
4 task drooping 1 guided bomb each on 1 location each. 
some bombs hit some target locations twice while not hitting others. 
also, the rippling out of most, if not all bombs in one pass that i am used to is no longer happening. 

Carpet bombing tasks,
F/A-18 2x2x2 MK-83
1 carpet bombing task 
instead of, well... carpet bombing, the AI drops one bomb after another in the most stupidest way ever. 

Idk where the problem is. but it must be with the MIZ. 
Doing the same task on an empty map the task are done the way they should be (apart from the rippling of guided bombs in 1 pass) 
also, i fast forward at around ~5-8x the speed idk if this might cause the problem. 
but there is something wrong here. 

if you load the Miz. 
Observe the 2x2 ship F/A-18 taking of from CVN-72 
both flights will orbit at wtp2 till 10.30 

 

DAY1 250-70.miz

[Grimes]

Yeah it appears to be a combination of the settings applied that breaks it. 

 

For the JDAM it appears that the AI don't know they can ripple GBU-31v2, GBU-31v4, and GBU-32 like they can the other JDAMs. Formation appears to play a role with when the 2nd in the flight will attack. Simply put if they are in a tight formation the wingman might feel that it doesn't have enough time to attack on that initial pass. 

 

Carpet bombing doesn't like the ROE you set for whatever reason. Its fine with the default "only designated" type but they will use one bomb a pass with priority designated and weapon free. 

 

BTW, please delete more of the units in the mission to show certain behaviors. I realize that the combination of settings was at fault here and your attempts to recreate in another mission failed, but I deleted everything but the two flights of F-18s and was still able to replicate it. Especially when needing to change a setting, check what happens, and repeat it is a bit of a waste of time watching AI taxi, take-off, orbit, and fly a long distance before seeing the test behavior. 

[FuY]

So, to nail it down.
1. bug: carpet bombing task gets broken when using certain ROE settings.
(I use the ROE setting to make sure these flights don´t randomly engage before their push time and they leave CAP to those who are assigned to it)

2. bug: The JDAM ripple seems to be a problem with GBU-31 and probably other types since the GBU-38 gets rippled out as expected. 

3. bug: in certain formations the wing man, alto it would make sense does not ripple out ordinance together with his flight lead 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by FuY

[Grimes]

With the ground attack task and the default ROE setting AI shouldn't try to attack stuff on their own. So it isn't something you should need to change to prevent that behavior. Nothing wrong with changing it to be safe though. 

 

GBU-31v1 and GBU-31v3 were the original bombs and should be ok in terms of behavior. They added v2 and v4 at somepoint, possibly with the intention of giving them the fire resistant coating texture that the USN/USMC variants of the bomb typically have. For whatever reason the AI don't use 31v2, 31v4, and gbu32 the same way as other JDAMs. 

[FuY]

I once had like every flight in the AO ignoring their individual and unique tasks, ignoring their orbits... and immediately lining up to attack a SA2 sight. 
I was really spooked by it.
Not only did they leave their station and went straight for the SA-2 
they all 1. went in a trail and then went for that one SA-2 like a hive. 

that is why i used the ROE. 
but ofc the ROE created new problems. 

I dont know... but working with the AI is impossible. 
i had countless problems with it. 
some i can reproduce... some i cant. 
some happend 20% of the time.
some happend 80% of the time.
some are so weird that i dont even bother reporting them as a bug cuz i dont know how to describe it. 

Do you have any tip of how to deal with this ? 
Do i wait till the Ai is overhauled completely ?
Do i notoriously report everything i observe ?   
Am i just stupid and it all works for you ?

Edited August 18, 2021 by FuY

[Grimes]

There is a lot of trial and error involved in trying to get the AI to do what you want. Sometimes it involves understanding the tasks assigned to them and other times its just changing one variable at a time to see if something different happens. There are plenty of instances where something as simple as waypoint placement when assigning a task can result in what appears to be bugged behavior. Arguably some of that does occur with default settings and tasks, but at the same time they are default because its the easiest way to get basic expected behavior without having to change anything. 

 

Your example of AI ignoring tasks and attacking an SA-2 sounds like you kept the default "SEAD" task enabled. This task, along with other similar ones like CAP, CAS, Fighter Sweep, and anti-ship, all allow the AI to attack certain targets at anytime during their flight. So if you place a CAP flight, give them a CAP task, and then tell em to orbit they will either: 

1. If no targets are detected, orbit, and freely break from the orbit to attack any aircraft that pop up

2. Detect targets before reaching the orbit, and decide to attack targets, if they live and no other targets exist, they can return to their orbit to wait to attack anything else that becomes detected. 

 

The fun part is how that might change as you add stuff into a mission. Adding an AWACS to the side of the CAP flight and all a sudden they are able to detect targets much further away. Remove that AWACS and the targets themselves play a role in detection. 

Mig-15: CAP flight will have to detect em visually or if Mig-15 comes within radar range

Mig-21: CAP flight would react to RWR of the Mig-21, but at relatively short range

Mig-29: Again RWR would cause CAP to be aware, but at a further distance than the Mig-21

Mig-31: Again RWR, but at much longer distance. 

 

This applies to SEAD and to the SA-2 in the sense that SAM behavior in game is rudimentary at best, they turn their radar on if any aircraft gets within the detection range. Therefor if you have a SAM with a large detection range and a flight with the default SEAD task, chances are that radar will turn itself on for any nearby friendly, and that SEAD flight will detect it on their RWR. 

 

In general if AI are attacking stuff before you want them to, check to see if there is a corresponding "enroute task" like CAP, CAS, SEAD, FighterSweep, and anti-ship. If there is, delete it, and replace with any of the "Search and Engage" tasks. Big difference between these and "Attack Group/Unit" is that the attack tasks forces AI to know about it, whereas search then engage requires AI to detect the target via any of their onboard sensors. 

 

Search then Engage: This is actually the task that CAP, SEAD, etc are actually using. Big difference is you can set the target attributes and limit valid targets to be within X distance of the entire flight plan

S&E InZone: Limits the targets to be in a specific area. Best used with multiple zones. 

S&E Group: Limits the groups the AI is allowed to attack

S&E Unit: Limits the units. Best for SEAD or Anti-ship because you have control over how the AI attacks. This is important because AI don't "waste" weapons, they fire exactly how many missiles it'd take to kill a given target. They aren't really calculating what happens if they miss or the missile gets shot down by the ship or sam. Instead of having a 4 ship of F-18s armed with 16 HARMs fire 3 missiles at an SA-10 (1 at each radar), you can tell em to fire all 16 and one might actually get through. 

 

ROE plays a role in all of this because you can use it to prevent the AI from attacking stuff before you want them to. It is one of many ways to do it. Another is to not assign the tasks before you want them to attack. I mentioned it because with Weapons Free the AI is allowed to go "off mission". They might more willing to use their onboard a2a missiles on a target or use A2G weapons before you want them to. I've attached a mission to show this. 

 

Just change the ROE of the flight on their initial WP. The AI is assigned a tasks at WP1 and WP2. With only designated they ignore the group they fly over and attack when told to. With ROE of priority designated or Weapons Free the AI will attack the group along their route, then go after the EWR before being assigned the target, and then return to their flight plan. 

ROE_sample.miz