Force Feed Back question for Black Shark!

[rapid]

Hey guys need some help deciding what to do. ok here's the thing: :helpsmilie:

As you all know BS supports FFB and also incorporates turbulence.

I plan to use a Saitek X52 Pro but remove the joystick and replace it with the Saitek Cyborg evo force - which is a force feed back joystick.

Is this a good idea?

When flying the real BS do you feel any forces at work on the Cyclic or when firing any weapons is there any forces at play on the Cyclic?

If your not sure what im asking please ask me to explain it again.

[DarkWanderer]

FFB in BS is used only for trimmer effects just like in the real thing - because the control hydraulic booster system is irrevertable. So, when you lose your hydro, you get all the aerodynamic (not weapons!) effects.

Edited November 16, 2008 by DarkWanderer

[rapid]

Ok im not Helo Savey could you please clarify your answer thanks.:)

[urze]

Hi,

It has been already answered the last 3 days.

Here:http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=561710#post561710

and Here:http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33320

Use please the search function !

No offense - only honest words:

A forum is not only there to post questions - sometimes you have to read.:)

OK- I know it for sure- I started the Threads..

...but they are on the same site only some posts away where you started this thread.

 

How about a Saitek Evo Force :D

 

Someday I'll try fusing the Evo and X52

Not precise enough (at least for me) and not enough space for the electronics of the X52 in its base.

 

 

 

(...)

No mechanical problems - moves really smooth. OK the overall force of the Stick is a little reduced due to the weight and extension - but sufficient to give you a good felling how the trim is set in LockOn and Black Shark.

And You have a nice vibration/shaking while overG/Stall maneuvers in Lockon.(...)

 

For instance:

When you Fly really slow in LockOn or a Kubilt (or similar) the force goes nearly away for the period you have no drag at your wings.

When you fly really fast (near Mach 1.5) it gets really Stiff. Adds so much to the immersion!

Eagle Dynamics did a really great job with pprogramming the FFB! It's not only a nice "Feature" - it really help you to control the Aircraft!

 

Edit This is a experience I don't have in other Sims this way.

 

I Saw some people say/post that they are missing the Vibration / Shaking while flying (See IL2).

 

My answer is : leave that better to a Buttkicker > http://www.thebuttkicker.com/

or even (when you can afford) to a moving Plattform like the D-BOX > http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33332.

(Hey Santa do you read it? ^^^^ :) ... you still have time - and I promisse: I will stop to anger the Cat of my neighbor ! :music_whistling:)

No real Pilot would like to have a always shaking Stick in his hand - There are dampers in real controls that compensate it.

(..)

[rapid]

Not really sure how to reply here really. First things first i can read and do and have used the search function. My post was clear and specific to the point that i was trying to glean the specific information if attainable to what i wanted to know.

The links that you gave me did not answer my question that i posed originally.

Yes they do plug your efforts that are applaudable but not really what i was looking for.... no offence!

I'll keep watching untill somebody asks the same question because it has popped up a couple of times already but has not been fully answered.

[urze]

OK- I try again.

Hey guys need some help deciding what to do. ok here's the thing: :helpsmilie:

As you all know BS supports FFB and also incorporates turbulence.

I plan to use a Saitek X52 Pro but remove the joystick and replace it with the Saitek Cyborg evo force - which is a force feed back joystick.

Is this a good idea?

No and yes

 

No: the Evo (and also the Logitech Force) are not accurate enugh for this task - It would create more frustration than joy.

Yes: Well implemented FFB is always the better option against a plain stick.

 

When flying the real BS do you feel any forces at work on the Cyclic or when firing any weapons is there any forces at play on the Cyclic?

Dark Wanderer answered this question completely.

[rapid]

I thank you for your reply and time taken to answer.

[urze]

Imagine this extreme but not absolute unusual Situation:

 

You are hit!

-Autopilot works not reliable for a stable hover.

-Automated target tracking isn't working (lets say sensors are covered with dirt/oil and whippers are broken)

But there is this bad guy between these buildings in the street.

And you know that he has the trigger for the explosives under the bridge, that leads the convoy, that you are protecting in save area. (BTW. a scenario you could easily build with the Mission editor including the trigger for the explosives :))

 

So you have to pinpoint the whole airframe to that guy while hovering between buildings...

 

Do you really want a shaking stick while shooting in this situation?

 

...thats why there is no FFB implemented for additional effects like shooting.

Edited November 17, 2008 by urze

[DarkWanderer]

Ok im not Helo Savey could you please clarify your answer thanks.

Sorry for a confused answer.

 

What I meant: In a real BS with functioning hydraulic boosters there is no (or at least shouldn't be) feedback on the stick from any of the events like shooting, turbulence, etc. - it's just not needed, so it's not implemented (like controlling a press or a crane: there can't be any feedback "by default". You can make one, but what for?..). All the load is taken by pump and accumulator. But when the hydraulic pump fails (e.g., on engine flameout), you must carry out it's functions yourself - so you will feel all the forces acting on rotors.

The effects of shooting in reality do not affect the cyclic in any way - they are shaking the hull, but not rotors - so neither they do in game.

[mc_smile]

DarkWanderer

So does this explain the problem of weak FF in BS? Does this mean that when hydraulic system breaks or fails you will recieve full FF with all its pros and cons?

 

То есть это объясняет слабый фидбек в ЧА? Получается что когда гидросистема откажет мы получим ну просто пооолный фидбек со всеми его преимуществами и недостатками?

[rapid]

Imagine this extreme but not absolute unusual Situation:

 

You are hit!

-Autopilot works not reliable for a stable hover.

-Automated target tracking isn't working (lets say sensors are covered with dirt/oil and whippers are broken)

But there is this bad guy between these buildings in the street.

And you know that he has the trigger for the explosives under the bridge, that leads the convoy, that you are protecting in save area. (BTW. a scenario you could easily build with the Mission editor including the trigger for the explosives :))

 

So you have to pinpoint the whole airframe to that guy while hovering between buildings...

 

Do you really want a shaking stick while shooting in this situation?

 

...thats why there is no FFB implemented for additional effects like shooting.

 

 

I thank you once again for explaining the iner workings of the BS system :thumbup:.

I'm begining to understand a little.:cry:

The FFB effect that i was talking about was like this: In LB2 when ever you fired a Hellfire or machine gun you would feel a very slight jump on the joystick, it was very slight not a violent movement.

 

 

 

Sorry for a confused answer.

 

What I meant: In a real BS with functioning hydraulic boosters there is no (or at least shouldn't be) feedback on the stick from any of the events like shooting, turbulence, etc. - it's just not needed, so it's not implemented (like controlling a press or a crane: there can't be any feedback "by default". You can make one, but what for?..). All the load is taken by pump and accumulator. But when the hydraulic pump fails (e.g., on engine flameout), you must carry out it's functions yourself - so you will feel all the forces acting on rotors.

The effects of shooting in reality do not affect the cyclic in any way - they are shaking the hull, but not rotors - so neither they do in game.

 

Thanks for going over your reply once again:book: this is all new to me so im trying to understand what to expect and what i should have in place for next year.:doh:

[DarkWanderer]

So does this explain the problem of weak FF in BS? Does this mean that when hydraulic system breaks or fails you will recieve full FF with all its pros and cons?

If you believe ED... :)

Есть, однако... при полностью выбитой гидре. И это правильно. Потому как ни отдача, ни что-то еще не могут приводить к пляскам ручки. Ее положение относительно корпуса бустера никто и ничто не может двинуть. Управление - необратимое.

В ГС в Су-25 - прямое. В этом и разница.

Вводить неконтролируемые дерганья ручки - это, как уже сказали, есть преступление против играющего. Отдача при выстреле дергает вертолет. И это правильно. А вводить в контур еще и отклонение ручки - неправильно.

Edited November 17, 2008 by DarkWanderer

[crazysundog]

Hey rapid, I cannot get my Evo to work well with blackshark, you may want to look at a different force feedback stick...

 

I was hoping to do the same thing; and I can get my Evo and my X52 working at the same time, but the FFB in that stick is horrible; more specifically- the Trim will not make the stick stay in position when I hit the trim button... I'm not going to mess with it anymore, but maybe keep my eye on e-bay for a different FFB...

[rapid]

Hey rapid, I cannot get my Evo to work well with blackshark, you may want to look at a different force feedback stick...

 

I was hoping to do the same thing; and I can get my Evo and my X52 working at the same time, but the FFB in that stick is horrible; more specifically- the Trim will not make the stick stay in position when I hit the trim button... I'm not going to mess with it anymore, but maybe keep my eye on e-bay for a different FFB...

 

thanks for the reply crazysundog. well i can discount that option.

I have a microsoft FFB version 1 but it has the old connection on it not the usb type so its no good really.

Looks like its the buttkicker route looks like the only option.