Grab throttle and stick in VR

[Raventhorn]

I have a very good hotas, but after flying in vr I am never going back to that.

Vr controls are much more immersive and realistic (they fit every plane correctly).
Even the non interactive cockpits work with Voice attack and VR controllers.

But some planes, and it`s not the ones you expect, it`s the rather expensive F14 tomcat and fully interactive mig 21Bis that have both stick and throttle that are stuck. There is no information about this before you buy.

I am currently refueling without using trim with VR controllers, that`s how precise they are. So I really do not want to go back to setting up a table in front of me with a hotas that never resembles the flight stick and is worse then VR controllers. When in VR you really feel the difference going from a long center stick in the f18 to the small stick in the f16 (with hotas it`s the same feel)

Please make all throttles and stick interactive with VR controllers

(if there is a solution to this please tell me, been googeling this for some time now)

Best regards.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Raventhorn

[Tippis]

As a general idea, definitely +1.

More out of interest, though, how do you handle the myriad of HOTAS buttons you usually have to contend with on an equally usually much less button-festooned VR controller? Do you do all of that via Voice Attack, or has the tech simply moved along much farther as far as finger detection without my noticing?

[Raventhorn]

I try to push as many buttons in the cockpit as I possibly can. Even if I can easily key bind "gear up" I keep it as is. 

I use voice attack only on the ones impossible to press in VR. And there are a few. Another bad thing is that those 2 buttons on top of the occulus touch can not be keybound to anything in DCS (you can use a script that keybinds them to keyboard buttons). This is fixed

Voice command works surprisingly well and if you spend a little time (you have to do that with hotas aswell) you can get a very good setup.

But to answer you question more direct, yes the tech (or vr updates in dcs) are advancing all the time so this will most likely come if I wish for it or not.
When I hold the stick I can press trigger button to shot missiles in the f18, and when I say "release mode" it holds in shift and I can use the same button as pickle (bomb and atg)
I also have to use "lock target" and "unlock target", the slewing on ddi`s works surprisingly well with the small stick on top so no need for anything special there.

DCS in vr is really something else and with new headsets coming (Varjo, and more) this will be huge. I have always used HOTAS but now it seems that we can cut them out (almost).
When I put on my headset for a gaming session I have no need to take it off or "peak" anywhere, in fact the room I am in does not even have a computer in it. For that I need 3 commands.
I say: Escape, press spacebar, and unpause (the last one to start multiplayer mission) You can bind several 100 commands in voice attack if you wanted to, so the buttons are no problem. I admit that I prefer to push actual buttons instead for voice that`s why I try to keep it to minimum.

Hope this answered your question

Best Regards.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Raventhorn

[cfrag]

In VR, a complex cockpit becomes much more accessible since (depending on how you use the HMD) you can simply look at a button, and click and scroll (turn knobs). Most modern cockpits (especially those that heavily use MFD with buttons arrayed around it) become much more accessible. Not all - some cockpits have visually difficult to access levers, switches, sliders or buttons(cough, cough, Mosquito!). Generally, though, flying VR is much, much easier - not only to better situational awareness, but also because of the truly 3D cockpit (glance on the gears lever, click, gears come up - no button needed on your stick. Same with flaps).

1 hour ago, Raventhorn said:

I have always used HOTAS but now it seems that we can cut them out (almost).

This is where you have completely lost me. When I don my HMD, I put my hands on Stick and Throttle, and there they remain throughout the entire experience (my stick can do mouse click and mouse wheel). Obviously, HOTAS is an acronym for Hands On Throttle And Stick. It's built for exactly that: you never have to take your hands off that damn thing, and can control all vital functions. More so in VR where you can glance-click on controls. 

Aircraft cockpits like the A-10, F-16 and F/A-18 are literally designed around HOTAS. Why you would want to cut this highly specific ergonomically centerpiece of cockpit workflow and replace it with a second-rate, lowest-common denominator game controller for VR experiences I can't grasp. I don't know what HOTAS setup you were using before you switched to VR; and taste is also a factor, I acknowledge that. But to me, my Virpil Alpha, Throttle and Rudder beat the living daylights (controller-wise) out of any VR gaming controller I have used (and I have them all: Vive, Valve, HP, Facebook - plus VRFree Gloves). Nothing IMHO comes close to a good HOTAS for most jet/helo flying. Additional support from HMD Look-at-button and Voice Attack is of course great, but they can be had for either configuration. 

What am I missing? You obviously know what you are talking about, so I honestly am interested in how you do that. Are your VR controllers mounted? How do you avoid tiring out your arm and hands (I sometimes get cramps after two hours of helicopter flying even with chair-mounted HOTAS)? How do you switch between the many functionalities required for, say, the Hog? Coolie, DMS, TMS, Slew, Trim - how on earth can you manage all those with dinky VR controllers (do you perhaps use voice attack to switch between control schemes?)? Do you perhaps use special flight sim controllers? I was seriously challenged just to keep the dang Hog aloft (did not find a good balance for the Vive nor Index controllers, completely bought the farm using VRFree gloves). How do you do it?

Please note, I'm not trolling - I'm the first to admit that I'm an idiot -- so I'm fully prepared to accept your guidance on how to get this to work.

Cheers,

-ch

[Raventhorn]

Hi, thanks for your reply, I will try to respond to all of it, and please ask again if I am missing something, or misunderstanding.

I use the Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, prob not the best one.

I get why you are wondering about how I hold my hands. I use a chair that is suited for it (low arm rests) and I connect a movable elbow rest. I try to make my own little cockpit seat

(It is not this exact one, but you the point)

Can I ask you a question ?
Do you feel like you are holding a long center stick when you fly the f18 with hotas ? I get the f16, there the hotas is really great, you can even position your hotas in a way that makes it line up with the cockpit visually.

At this point I have actually used VR controllers more than my Hotas so perhaps I get more used to it (not counting when I played before VR was even a thing). Maybe that is why I feel like they are even more precise than the Hotas (or I just suck with my hotas )

However I can not disagree with you that this comes down to taste and perhaps my statement I have always used HOTAS but now it seems that we can cut them out (almost). Was a bit to harsh, cause HOTAS will prob have a place in any flight sim for many years to come.

Anyway, I will try to answer your questions more direct:

Q:How do you avoid tiring out your arm and hands?
A:That would be a combo of constantly moving my arms around like I am actually in a cockpit, pressing buttons on ddi and in the cockpit (makes the blood flow) and the armrest and chair setup, can play for hours and hours, and my head get tired before my arms (due to the head straps)

Q:How do you switch between the many functionalities required for, say, the Hog? Coolie, DMS, TMS, Slew, Trim - how on earth can you manage all those with dinky VR controllers (do you perhaps use voice attack to switch between control schemes?)?
A:Slew works fine without any extra work, I just say "sensor left" and my left DDI is soi, and the stick on top slew. For trim I use "trim mode" and stick on top. So yes I need control schemes (can be hard to remember all sometimes) DMS would be straight commands. Like in the F18 I say "select sidewinder" and everything is set up for launch.

Q: I was seriously challenged just to keep the dang Hog aloft (did not find a good balance for the Vive nor Index controllers, completely bought the farm using VRFree gloves). How do you do it?
A: This I find to be more easy with controllers, and when you do airial refueling with vr controllers you can see how precise they are, I was amazed, but I guess this will vary from headset to headset. And training, I will admin that when I first flew the f16 I was thinking that this is not possible, but now it is really nice, and that makes it even more fun, I actually have to change the way I use my hands according to what plane I fly, the controller handle different from plane to plane.

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Please note, I'm not trolling - I'm the first to admit that I'm an idiot -- so I'm fully prepared to accept your guidance on how to get this to work.

I never thought you where either I find people on this forum to be mature and polite.
And you seem like you have done a lot of testing yourself, so not sure I have much guidance to give, but I tried to answer the best I can.

And the reason I am making a post in the wish section is that I am aware that VR is still lacking, even more so in the control department.
Thanks for your questions. I could maybe make a vid on this. (not something I usually do)

Edit* Was thinking about the AH64 releasing 1 des (have it ready in my lib.) and how I can (and you to) take my hands down and grab the collective and pull it up. With a hotas the throttle is on the table as a plane throttle not saying it will be easy with VR but I think it`s a good example where you will need several hotas to get the "real feel". (I know there heli Hotas with collective)

Best Regards.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Raventhorn

[cfrag]

Thank you for the illuminating answers. I'll really have to bust out my controllers and have another go at this to see if I can get anything like you have.

My setup is similar to this (except with a better chair   - apologies, borrowed the image from a vendor for very good chair mount accessories)

So you see that my arms are always resting on the  arm rests, with me always flying side-stick (I usually hide the stick anyway to get better glance access to the buttons behind the stick (VERY important in the Hind).

1 hour ago, Raventhorn said:

Do you feel like you are holding a long center stick when you fly the f18 with hotas ? I get the f16, there the hotas is really great, you can even position your hotas in a way that makes it line up with the cockpit visually.

No, definitely not. Then again, I usually hide the stick. I'm not at all concerned if stick and and my hands don't line up (to be honest, I almost never look at my hands - reason being that I also hide the pilot's body). 

 

1 hour ago, Raventhorn said:

and the armrest and chair setup

Ah, that makes sense. I'll try that with the valve index controllers. They are comfortable enough and can be released without falling to the floor (you have to constantly grip the Vive controllers, something that can become uncomfortable after a few hours). 

 

1 hour ago, Raventhorn said:

just say "sensor left" and my left DDI is soi, and the stick on top slew

Maybe some strategic Voice Attack can help me too. I never imagined anyone going this far with VA, but it sounds like a fun challenge.

Looks like my next week-end is booked for test flighting a VR-controller

Thanks for taking the time,

-ch

 

[Raventhorn]

Just wanted to reply here considering the new patch and hands are fixed.
In my case this made it WAY worse to get a good position, but this can be fixed with driver4VR sold on steam (and prob outside steam as well)

Here you can position arms offset to where your controllers are, and you can custom fit to your needs.
Personally I moved my right hand forward a little bit, and up a few inches. Left hand down a little bit (to grab throttle stick)

Just wanted to mention this

 

Regards.