Stand-Alone Mission Editor

[Antix70]

As one who flies in VR, it would be nice if the mission editor was not encapsulated within DCS. If I wish to edit on my monitor and test fly in VR, the process is pretty tedious, with numerous back and forth between settings and restarting of DCS. If it were it's own EXE, none of that would be necessary.

[scuba82]

You can start DCS in an "non-vr Mode" With the following startpatameter: Create a copy of DCS shortcut, and change its target to:

"C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\bin\DCS.exe" --force_disable_VR

 

Thus was you don't have ti Change your Settings.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Skatezilla’s GUI tool does it with buttons

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/134493-the-dcs-updater-gui-utility/

[cfrag]

I can can selectively start DCS for VR or flat earth (using Steam) - and I still would love to see a stand-alone ME. Not so much for VR but so I can work on missions while the mission is running, and (that would be best) so I can work on a mission on the road, without having the full DCS rig with me (a DCS install weighs in at some cool 400 Gigs for me). A standalone ME (optimally with 3D map view and Lua validation, but no flying) would be a dream for me.

I can dream, can I  ?

[=475FG= Dawger]

57 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I can can selectively start DCS for VR or flat earth (using Steam) - and I still would love to see a stand-alone ME. Not so much for VR but so I can work on missions while the mission is running, and (that would be best) so I can work on a mission on the road, without having the full DCS rig with me (a DCS install weighs in at some cool 400 Gigs for me). A standalone ME (optimally with 3D map view and Lua validation, but no flying) would be a dream for me.

I can dream, can I  ?

Hard drive space is cheap.

 

[Antix70]

Yeah, I don't wish to start DCS in non-VR, edit my mission, turn VR back on, restart DCS in VR just to test the mission. I don't fly in 2D. Your suggestions still result in a crap-ton of restarts and changing of VR options.

I tried Skatezilla's app, and it results in the same restarts.

As cfrag said, being able to edit the mission in a stand-alone editor while simultaneously running DCS is ideal. Restart the mission with the saved changes, and test fly.

I tend to put a single plane or helicopter in during my initial stages of building a mission, so as to fly around and observe to make sure the AI is doing as I told them to do, and not suddenly stopping for who knows what reason, or driving through buildings, or just doing strange things thanks to bugs in the instructions and waypoints that ED never addresses.

 

[Dangerzone]

I have no idea if this is possible or not - but is it possible to have 2 separate installs of DCS - where you can launch both at the same time, or will the 'singlewritedir' error come up / is based on the processID and not the actual executable.

I admit, having 2 separate installs and instances of DCS running just to do this is also a PITA, but since no separate mission editor exists at the moment- if there is a way to hack/fool DCS into allowing 2 separate run instances on the same processor that could be a workaround?

 

Edit; And just as I post this, I realise not only is HDD space an issue - but it may not like running with the same account at the same time - so unless you were doing a free map - you'd have to buy 2 copies of each map - which now makes my suggestion sound idiotic. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dangerzone

[=475FG= Dawger]

6 hours ago, Antix70 said:

Yeah, I don't wish to start DCS in non-VR, edit my mission, turn VR back on, restart DCS in VR just to test the mission. I don't fly in 2D. Your suggestions still result in a crap-ton of restarts and changing of VR options.

I tried Skatezilla's app, and it results in the same restarts.

As cfrag said, being able to edit the mission in a stand-alone editor while simultaneously running DCS is ideal. Restart the mission with the saved changes, and test fly.

I tend to put a single plane or helicopter in during my initial stages of building a mission, so as to fly around and observe to make sure the AI is doing as I told them to do, and not suddenly stopping for who knows what reason, or driving through buildings, or just doing strange things thanks to bugs in the instructions and waypoints that ED never addresses.

 

The F2 and F7 keys are lot easier than flying around to observe AI behavior and there is no need to switch to VR.

 

 

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The F2 and F7 keys are lot easier than flying around to observe AI behavior and there is no need to switch to VR.

Agreed. And yet, it is a bit annoying that I can't edit and fly a mission at the same time. The 'quit mission, quit server, load ME, load Mission, fix something, start as server' rigmarole gets tired quickly. If I could change something in ME-standalone whilst flying that same mission in DCS, and after saving simply hit 'reload mission' on the server, that would really go a long way (for me). YMMV, but I spend a lot of time debugging missions, so I'd be grateful for things like this. That's without even looking at VR (mission editing in VR is a non-started to me, so let's disregard that for the time being). 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by cfrag

[=475FG= Dawger]

42 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Agreed. And yet, it is a bit annoying that I can't edit and fly a mission at the same time. The 'quit mission, quit server, load ME, load Mission, fix something, start as server' rigmarole gets tired quickly. If I could change something in ME-standalone whilst flying that same mission in DCS, and after saving simply hit 'reload mission' on the server, that would really go a long way (for me). YMMV, but I spend a lot of time debugging missions, so I'd be grateful for things like this. That's without even looking at VR (mission editing in VR is a non-started to me, so let's disregard that for the time being). 

 

 

The closest you can get is a server on a separate machine with the missions on a shared drive. But you still have to stop the mission on the server to save your ME edits. I have this setup and it works pretty well.

However, if your edits are all in separate lua scripts, they can be edited and reloaded while flying without ever stopping the mission.

The key is to avoid the need to edit using the ME. 

[cfrag]

7 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The key is to avoid the need to edit using the ME. 

Indeed. Hence the wish for a separate, standalone ME which would make all that moot. 

(I have rented a standalone server (from the really, really nice folks over at Fox3), and the procedure to promote the mission to production there is even more involved and requires a server mission restart via web interface, so that's even worse that just doing it local-host)

Edited July 14, 2022 by cfrag

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

Indeed. Hence the wish for a separate, standalone ME which would make all that moot. 

(I have rented a standalone server (from the really, really nice folks over at Fox3), and the procedure to promote the mission to production there is even more involved and requires a server mission restart via web interface, so that's even worse that just doing it local-host)

 

I don't see how a standalone ME would resolve the need to upload and start an edited mission on a remote server.

Basically, it seems you are looking for a Gamemaster functionality with the ability to save what you Zeus into the mission. The script for that already exists although I haven't used it.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I don't see how a standalone ME would resolve the need to upload and start an edited mission on a remote server

Apologies for being unclear. It wouldn't. That's why I'm developing locally, and that is where a standalone ME would come in handy. I design lots of missions. I design missions similar to how I write code: modular. During design/creation of missions, there are many write/test/debug cycles that I go through: is the zone's position correct, does it work correctly, are the attributes correct, do the flag fire correctly, is a group's formation correct, does the timing work out, is the spelling of messages correct and go to the correct side, does staging work correct, does the sequencing of events work out, etc.

Since I'm following a staged design approach (instead of a big bang approach), I tend to first work on one aspect (say stage one), and when that is complete, I make sure it works before I go on to designing the next one. In other words, for each stage I run test/debug; when the stage tests out fine, I then test integration of stages.

For each of this, I run through multiple test cycles. Let's say I see that one of the triggers doesn't work. So the sequence is: run mission, see something is wrong, go back to ME, build a hypothesis of what is wrong (may take a few more trips to running the mission) track the bug to the source, correct whatever is wrong. Run fresh mission test to confirm that the bug has been removed and no regression has occurred. I think I average some 5-15 round trips ME/Mission per bug. At some point, you start wishing that you could skip the round trip. If I had the mission open in a stand-alone editor, I could fix, save, reload mission and go in a fraction of the time. It shortes the (Quit Mission - Quit (local) server -> load ME -> load mission -> fix -> save -> start locally as MP) loop into two significantly shorter parallel loops: Editor:  (fix bug-> save) and parallel Server (Run -> reload).

Only when the mission checks out locally, I deploy to 'production'. To me, the standalone ME would be a dev tool to facilitate more rapid (local) testing.

1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Basically, it seems you are looking for a Gamemaster functionality with the ability to save what you Zeus into the mission. The script for that already exists although I haven't used it.

Unfortunately, no. My missions heavily rely on trigger zones, and their attributes that control the actions that are attached to the attributes. So correcting a bug usually entitles changing a zone attribute, or adding/moving/resizing trigger zones. Sadly, no Zeus script can do that in DCS. Currently, ME isn't very friendly to those who are heavily into designing missions like that, as that round trips starts getting old, and you start holding off on the next test, which increases the likelihood of adding new, more complex bugs. But a tool that could change, and then save these changes in mission would indeed be a game-changer (no pun intended) for me.

Of course, I'm always open to ideas how I can alleviate some of these issues, and I thank you for your kind suggestions - I deeply appreciate them!

-ch

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by cfrag

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Apologies for being unclear. It wouldn't. That's why I'm developing locally, and that is where a standalone ME would come in handy. I design lots of missions. I design missions similar to how I write code: modular. During design/creation of missions, there are many write/test/debug cycles that I go through: is the zone's position correct, does it work correctly, are the attributes correct, do the flag fire correctly, is a group's formation correct, does the timing work out, is the spelling of messages correct and go to the correct side, does staging work correct, does the sequencing of events work out, etc.

Since I'm following a staged design approach (instead of a big bang approach), I tend to first work on one aspect (say stage one), and when that is complete, I make sure it works before I go on to designing the next one. In other words, for each stage I run test/debug; when the stage tests out fine, I then test integration of stages.

For each of this, I run through multiple test cycles. Let's say I see that one of the triggers doesn't work. So the sequence is: run mission, see something is wrong, go back to ME, build a hypothesis of what is wrong (may take a few more trips to running the mission) track the bug to the source, correct whatever is wrong. Run fresh mission test to confirm that the bug has been removed and no regression has occurred. I think I average some 5-15 round trips ME/Mission per bug. At some point, you start wishing that you could skip the round trip. If I had the mission open in a stand-alone editor, I could fix, save, reload mission and go in a fraction of the time. It shortes the (Quit Mission - Quit (local) server -> load ME -> load mission -> fix -> save -> start locally as MP) loop into two significantly shorter parallel loops: Editor:  (fix bug-> save) and parallel Server (Run -> reload).

Only when the mission checks out locally, I deploy to 'production'. To me, the standalone ME would be a dev tool to facilitate more rapid (local) testing.

Unfortunately, no. My missions heavily rely on trigger zones, and their attributes that control the actions that are attached to the attributes. So correcting a bug usually entitles changing a zone attribute, or adding/moving/resizing trigger zones. Sadly, no Zeus script can do that in DCS. Currently, ME isn't very friendly to those who are heavily into designing missions like that, as that round trips starts getting old, and you start holding off on the next test, which increases the likelihood of adding new, more complex bugs. But a tool that could change, and then save these changes in mission would indeed be a game-changer (no pun intended) for me.

Of course, I'm always open to ideas how I can alleviate some of these issues, and I thank you for your kind suggestions - I deeply appreciate them!

-ch

 

 

You describe essentially what I do with separate server machine with the mission on a drive accessible by both machines. When I need to edit the mission, I stop the mission on the server, edit the mission on my client machine, and restart the mission on the server. 

I don't know how much demand there is to run two instances of DCS on the same machine, one as the server and the second as a ME only. I would think you could probably make that happen without a special ME version by running a server only DCS instance and a regular client instance on the same machine. You could symbolic link the map location so you only need one install of the maps for both instances to save storage space since the server version grabs ALL the maps every update.

 

[cfrag]

Just now, =475FG= Dawger said:

When I need to edit the mission, I stop the mission on the server, edit the mission on my client machine, and restart the mission on the server. 

That sounds very interesting! What I'm not sure I fully understand is how you debug the mission - don't you have to exit ME and enter the sim at some point? Or are you using a third machine to run the sim? How do you switch between testing and development? That is what causing me pain.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

That sounds very interesting! What I'm not sure I fully understand is how you debug the mission - don't you have to exit ME and enter the sim at some point? Or are you using a third machine to run the sim? How do you switch between testing and development? That is what causing me pain.

I still have to switch from ME to Multiplayer and join my server to actually fly the mission running on the server as a client. A third machine would save that step but one would need to a third DCS account and pay for the maps used on the server for ME.

The ability to join an MP server directly from the ME with a password to bypass exterior view restrictions so I could fly around in F11 and use F2 and F6 would be handy in my particular case. I don't know if ED has any motivation to do such a thing.

I normally don't need to "fly" to debug. I create AI for the player slots and and debug in the mission editor using time acceleration and only load it on the server when it appears mostly bug free. 

[Antix70]

3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I still have to switch from ME to Multiplayer and join my server to actually fly the mission running on the server as a client.

Ahhh, so you have to exit the mission editor, turn VR back on, exit DCS, restart DCS from the desktop, wait however long it takes for it to get back to the main menu, load up your mission and fly it. Then if you find something else you wish to change, you have exit the mission, turn VR back off, exit DCS, restart DCS, open the mission editor, make your changes and start the whole process over again.

I get it, you don't "fly" your missions. F2 and F7, and all that. Why don't I just edit missions in VR, like I currently do, and then fly them in VR to test? OR, since editing the missions in VR for extended lengths of time can be a strain on the eyes, I can come to this forum called WISH LIST, and suggest to ED to pop the Mission Editor out of the DCS codebase.

Not trying to be a jerk here. I've typed this no less than 5 times, and can't find a way for it to NOT sound snarky, so I'll just tell you it isn't intended that way, aside from the point that I came here to make a suggestion to ED, not start a debate, which many of these Wish List posts made by folks turn into for some reason.

Can you explain to me why popping out the mission editor would be a detriment to yourself or the community? I hope I've explained in detail well enough why I think it's a detriment to leave it inside DCS. I think myself and others could benefit greatly if they did this.

Honestly, being sincere here.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Antix70 said:

Ahhh, so you have to exit the mission editor, turn VR back on, exit DCS, restart DCS from the desktop, wait however long it takes for it to get back to the main menu, load up your mission and fly it. Then if you find something else you wish to change, you have exit the mission, turn VR back off, exit DCS, restart DCS, open the mission editor, make your changes and start the whole process over again.

I get it, you don't "fly" your missions. F2 and F7, and all that. Why don't I just edit missions in VR, like I currently do, and then fly them in VR to test? OR, since editing the missions in VR for extended lengths of time can be a strain on the eyes, I can come to this forum called WISH LIST, and suggest to ED to pop the Mission Editor out of the DCS codebase.

Not trying to be a jerk here. I've typed this no less than 5 times, and can't find a way for it to NOT sound snarky, so I'll just tell you it isn't intended that way, aside from the point that I came here to make a suggestion to ED, not start a debate, which many of these Wish List posts made by folks turn into for some reason.

Can you explain to me why popping out the mission editor would be a detriment to yourself or the community? I hope I've explained in detail well enough why I think it's a detriment to leave it inside DCS. I think myself and others could benefit greatly if they did this.

Honestly, being sincere here.

Your reading comprehension is lacking. Or you just didn’t bother to read. 
 

The mission editor is, essentially, already standalone.

You can do exactly what you want to do by running a second instance of DCS. 

 

[Antix70]

Didn't Dangerzone up above disqualify that idea, citing conflicts?

VR can be pretty overloading to a system with only one DCS loading, can't imagine how it'd be with two loaded.

The original suggestion to ED still stands. And you didn't answer my question.

[cfrag]

5 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The mission editor is, essentially, already standalone.

You can do exactly what you want to do by running a second instance of DCS. 

I'm trying to replicate this, but I'm hitting a wall. I've set up a second PC (smaller, still good enough to run a dedicated server), installed DCS dedicated server, and use sync software (synctrayzor) to keep the server's mission directory in sync (to mimic my saas setup) with my dev mission directory. I control the server machine using a VNC connection and the dedicated DCS server using the web local GUI, connecting from my dev machine.

For the life of me I can't figure out how to simultaneously edit the mission and debug it in sim. Since the server runs DCS headless, I can't use it to fly the mission on that machine, nor (as I initially thought) perhaps use the dedicated server's instance of DCS to edit the .miz

What am I overlooking? How can I simultaneously edit the mission and run it? In other words: how can I test the mission without having to quit ME [and without purchasing full new licenses, that's north of 3000 USD, too much for me]. That is my 'holy grail': Essentially, I want to "Alt-Tab" between ME and Sim running the mission to eliminate the load ME / load Sim [I do realize the mission itself needs a reload after each change, I mean loading the sim environment] ping-pong lag.

I feel that I'm close but I need that one final piece of the puzzle.  

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by cfrag

[cfrag]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:41 AM, cfrag said:

I feel that I'm close but I need that one final piece of the puzzle.  

Unfortunately, I was not successful. If someone can find a way to allow me to simultaneously fly a mission and have that mission open in ME on the same computer, please, *please* let me know, as it would significantly ease my mission development process. As mentioned above, I'd like to Alt-Tab between the sim running the mission, and ME having the mission open for edit. Of course, any changes to the mission would require a mission restart, but I'd be able to quickly check mission settings (names of flags, triggers) while in-mission (pretty much like in an IDE, I can change the source code of an app while it is running - I'd still need to recompile and run for the changes to take effect, but at least I can "trace what the code does" while the app is running. I want that ability in DCS: look at how I set up units, trigger zones, attributes, flags etc. in ME while the sim is running the mission).