James DeSouza Posted August 23, 2022 Posted August 23, 2022 (edited) After using a force feedback steering wheel I have wanted a force feedback joystick as I quite like force feedback. I saw a G940 going for dirt cheap so got my hands on it. But I have a few questions about getting it started; A) It isn't being detected by either Ghub or the Logitech Gaming Software program. Is this normal? B) I saw on a tutorial for getting it set up on MSFS 2020 that you can use the logitech profiler software to set it up, which you can download from logitech's page. However I cannot find a logitech profiler anywhere on logitech's page. C) How do you check what the firmware version is? In order to see if I need to upgrade. D) It doesn't have force feedback yet, I assume because of A and B. It just has resistance from the motors right now. That resistance is very obviously notchy though, like I am slipping over gear teeth or something like that. It feels like a more extreme version of the way the G29 feels. Is this normal for a G940? Thanks for any answers. Hmm, it looks like I need an older version of LGS for the device to work. Why would they stop supporting a device like this? It's quite strange. Actually never mind, the older version of LGS can't recognise the stick either. Edited August 23, 2022 by James DeSouza
Drakoz Posted August 24, 2022 Posted August 24, 2022 A) The G940 is an old product and not supported by any recent (as in the last few years) Logitech software. You need to download the software that is specific to the G940. It should be available on the G940 support page. B) Go to the Logitech Support site, Downloads, and search for the G940. Below I pasted a link to the page. Select Windows 10 and you will see Logitech Gaming Software V5.10.127. This is an old version of the Logitech Gaming Software, and is the last version that supports the G940. I haven't tried it on Windows 11, but it works fine on Windows 10. https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024852233--Downloads-Flight-System-G940 C) The Logitech Gaming Software v5.10.127 can confirm the firmware on your device and also update your device to firmware v1.41. The latest from Logitech is firmware v1.42 which tries to fix the reversal bug (see comments below). This firmware is not available from Logitech directly because it was only released on Logitech's older support forum (now deleted). What you really want, though is fred41's hacked firmware which fixes the reversal bug on all axes properly. I have provided links to all this at the bottom of this message. In summary, though, fred41's firmware makes the G940 work noticeably more smoothly vs. v1.41 or even v1.42, and fixes the reversal bug on all axes, not just the X/Y joystick axis. D) Yes, the notchy feel is typical of the G940. The firmware update fixes this a little by allowing the force feedback to work more smoothly (not be so jumpy), but the gearing and design of the G940 still has a notchy feel. The notchy feel can be improved. Somewhere I thought I wrote a bunch of notes on how to do that, but I can't find that right now. I also started a Youtube video on the subject, but never posted it. I suppose I should just post it. There is some discussion about this in fred41's forum topic. Re: your comment that the old version of LGS didn't work either. Make sure you have downloaded LGS v5.10.127. It should install drivers and everything for the G940. Here are links to the things I mentioned above: My explanation of the G940 Reversal Bug and the v1.42 firmware fix: (my first post talks about fred41's firmware fix with links, but I have copied links below as well) https://forum.dcs.world/topic/189949-logitech-g940-reversal-bug-v142-firmware-update/ Archive.org backup of Logitech's support forums about the v1.42 firmware (and download link): https://web.archive.org/web/20120119090658/http:/forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-firmware-1-42-is-now-available/td-p/542496 fred41's forum topic about the G940 - a good read if you want to understand how to get the best use of your G940 - includes his discussion of his firmware hack: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/205420-g940-force-feedback-discussion fred41's firmware download (at github): https://github.com/fred41/G940-firmware-fixes
Drakoz Posted August 24, 2022 Posted August 24, 2022 And I just noticed you found much of the above info already and tried the firmware (based on your post to fred41's topic). I will reply there.
James DeSouza Posted August 26, 2022 Author Posted August 26, 2022 On 8/24/2022 at 8:56 PM, Drakoz said: D) Yes, the notchy feel is typical of the G940. The firmware update fixes this a little by allowing the force feedback to work more smoothly (not be so jumpy), but the gearing and design of the G940 still has a notchy feel. The notchy feel can be improved. Somewhere I thought I wrote a bunch of notes on how to do that, but I can't find that right now. I also started a Youtube video on the subject, but never posted it. I suppose I should just post it. There is some discussion about this in fred41's forum topic. With the force feedback strength lower, the notchyness isn't that bad. Feels about equivalent to a brand new G29 wheel, which is to say noticeable but you tune it out easily enough. One question though that I feel like asking but wouldn't fit in the other thread so I will ask it here, when you turn the power off to it and unplug it, the stick just flops down to one of its mechanical stops and rests there. Is it okay to leave it like this, or are you supposed to rig up some way to keep the stick centered? Being used to sprung joysticks, this seems quite strange to me. Though I have to say, I much prefer the feeling of this stick to any sprung joystick I have ever had. The way you can have as much or as little resistance as you want on the fly while still having it center itself or act like a helicopter cyclic is quite nice. 1
Drakoz Posted August 29, 2022 Posted August 29, 2022 The G940 notchy gear feel is OK, but not the best. I tend to set the force just strong enough to hold the stick for trim on an aircraft but not so much that it feels really notchy. What is important is how well the stick holds itself without any play. Unfortunately the G940 is pretty bad on that. fred41's firmware helps, and the mods I did to mine to tighten it up also helped a lot, but still has a little too much play to just let it go hands free sometime. The Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 has the best feel of any FFB stick I have used (at least for a consumer grade stick - there are a couple really expensive ones out there I haven't tried). Sadly, the FFB2 doesn't have enough buttons, and worse, it has as dead zone at stick center (not force center, but stick center) that makes it much less desirable for helicopters. It is not so bad for fixed wing, but still annoying. Force center is where the stick is being held, which might not be stick center. If the deadzone moved with the force center, it wouldn't be so bad, but if you trim the stick off center (which is going to happen all the time), you may move through the stick center and have a momentary pause as you move through the dead zone. There is no way to completely disable this deadzone, even using the MS FFB2 software. When powered off, it is OK to let it just flop over. There are no springs in the stick. It is entirely controlled by motors and gears, so it doesn't care what position it is in. What is important is, if you bypass the hand sensor (like putting a piece of tape across the sensor holes), so that the stick force is working even if you let go of the stick, make sure you don't leave it unattended whole powered on. A little noise in the feedback loop, or say, if a cat a person knocked it, can cause it to go into undamped oscillation and beat itself to pieces. They include the hand sensor to prevent it from moving when someone isn't using the stick but it defeats much of the purpose of trimming - so you can let go of the stick for a moment. Most sticks have a optical sensor that your hand covers up. Just put a piece of tape over the sensor holes, and it keeps the stick active even if you let go. Also, you can pull the power plug and still use it on USB as a springless stick. I never do that, but just saying it won't hurt anything. The USB circuit is powered by the USB cable. The power plug only powers the FFB circuit and motors. Yes, after using FFB, I can't go back to a normal stick. I thought I heard the patents have finally expired for the FFB haptic feedback stuff (the software portion of the FFB standard). If so, I hope that means we will finally see some serious flight sim FFB sticks being made. I have threatened to make my own for years as a DIY, but just don't have time. 1
MAXsenna Posted August 29, 2022 Posted August 29, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Drakoz said: it has as dead zone at stick center (not force center, but stick center) that makes it much less desirable for helicopters Really? I have never noticed. I like it better for helicopters because I can trim them perfectly. Due to the "sloppiness" when it's supposed to be centered. I can never do it in fixed wings. In the Huey I just turn force trim off. And yeah. I used tape. I have five of them now. The cheapest I got for free included with a Cougar set I paid a 100 for, and 65 for the most expensive, but I see they latest ones go for a 100. This is in Norway. Edited August 29, 2022 by MAXsenna
James DeSouza Posted August 31, 2022 Author Posted August 31, 2022 On 8/29/2022 at 1:25 AM, Drakoz said: The G940 notchy gear feel is OK, but not the best. I tend to set the force just strong enough to hold the stick for trim on an aircraft but not so much that it feels really notchy. What is important is how well the stick holds itself without any play. Unfortunately the G940 is pretty bad on that. fred41's firmware helps, and the mods I did to mine to tighten it up also helped a lot, but still has a little too much play to just let it go hands free sometime. The Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 has the best feel of any FFB stick I have used (at least for a consumer grade stick - there are a couple really expensive ones out there I haven't tried). Sadly, the FFB2 doesn't have enough buttons, and worse, it has as dead zone at stick center (not force center, but stick center) that makes it much less desirable for helicopters. It is not so bad for fixed wing, but still annoying. Force center is where the stick is being held, which might not be stick center. If the deadzone moved with the force center, it wouldn't be so bad, but if you trim the stick off center (which is going to happen all the time), you may move through the stick center and have a momentary pause as you move through the dead zone. There is no way to completely disable this deadzone, even using the MS FFB2 software. When powered off, it is OK to let it just flop over. There are no springs in the stick. It is entirely controlled by motors and gears, so it doesn't care what position it is in. What is important is, if you bypass the hand sensor (like putting a piece of tape across the sensor holes), so that the stick force is working even if you let go of the stick, make sure you don't leave it unattended whole powered on. A little noise in the feedback loop, or say, if a cat a person knocked it, can cause it to go into undamped oscillation and beat itself to pieces. They include the hand sensor to prevent it from moving when someone isn't using the stick but it defeats much of the purpose of trimming - so you can let go of the stick for a moment. Most sticks have a optical sensor that your hand covers up. Just put a piece of tape over the sensor holes, and it keeps the stick active even if you let go. Also, you can pull the power plug and still use it on USB as a springless stick. I never do that, but just saying it won't hurt anything. The USB circuit is powered by the USB cable. The power plug only powers the FFB circuit and motors. Yes, after using FFB, I can't go back to a normal stick. I thought I heard the patents have finally expired for the FFB haptic feedback stuff (the software portion of the FFB standard). If so, I hope that means we will finally see some serious flight sim FFB sticks being made. I have threatened to make my own for years as a DIY, but just don't have time. I was considering the FFB2, but like you I wanted a stick with a decent amount of buttons on the stick itself since I play in VR and the G940 looked like the best FFB stick in terms of button layout/amount that wasn't buying a brand new Brunner. Thank you for the warning about the stick oscillation problem, it hadn't occurred to me. The first thing I did when testing if the FFB worked was cover those holes in tape as the reset defeated the purpose. Is it okay to let the stick start up with that tape on it, or might that cause issues with its start up calibration? To tell the truth I haven't used it much since getting it set up due to work. It seemed okay but I want it to last as long as it can. I am surprised it is working as well as it is considering it's around 2 decades old.
Drakoz Posted September 3, 2022 Posted September 3, 2022 I leave the tape on mine always, so yes, it is OK to power it up with the tape in place. The G940 uses hall effect sensors and self calibrates. Or at least I have never had to calibrate it.
onionterror Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 On 8/24/2022 at 9:56 PM, Drakoz said: A) The G940 is an old product and not supported by any recent (as in the last few years) Logitech software. You need to download the software that is specific to the G940. It should be available on the G940 support page. B) Go to the Logitech Support site, Downloads, and search for the G940. Below I pasted a link to the page. Select Windows 10 and you will see Logitech Gaming Software V5.10.127. This is an old version of the Logitech Gaming Software, and is the last version that supports the G940. I haven't tried it on Windows 11, but it works fine on Windows 10. https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024852233--Downloads-Flight-System-G940 C) The Logitech Gaming Software v5.10.127 can confirm the firmware on your device and also update your device to firmware v1.41. The latest from Logitech is firmware v1.42 which tries to fix the reversal bug (see comments below). This firmware is not available from Logitech directly because it was only released on Logitech's older support forum (now deleted). What you really want, though is fred41's hacked firmware which fixes the reversal bug on all axes properly. I have provided links to all this at the bottom of this message. In summary, though, fred41's firmware makes the G940 work noticeably more smoothly vs. v1.41 or even v1.42, and fixes the reversal bug on all axes, not just the X/Y joystick axis. D) Yes, the notchy feel is typical of the G940. The firmware update fixes this a little by allowing the force feedback to work more smoothly (not be so jumpy), but the gearing and design of the G940 still has a notchy feel. The notchy feel can be improved. Somewhere I thought I wrote a bunch of notes on how to do that, but I can't find that right now. I also started a Youtube video on the subject, but never posted it. I suppose I should just post it. There is some discussion about this in fred41's forum topic. Re: your comment that the old version of LGS didn't work either. Make sure you have downloaded LGS v5.10.127. It should install drivers and everything for the G940. Here are links to the things I mentioned above: My explanation of the G940 Reversal Bug and the v1.42 firmware fix: (my first post talks about fred41's firmware fix with links, but I have copied links below as well) https://forum.dcs.world/topic/189949-logitech-g940-reversal-bug-v142-firmware-update/ Archive.org backup of Logitech's support forums about the v1.42 firmware (and download link): https://web.archive.org/web/20120119090658/http:/forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-firmware-1-42-is-now-available/td-p/542496 fred41's forum topic about the G940 - a good read if you want to understand how to get the best use of your G940 - includes his discussion of his firmware hack: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/205420-g940-force-feedback-discussion fred41's firmware download (at github): https://github.com/fred41/G940-firmware-fixes Heya Drakoz, dont suppose you could provide me a few tips on some of those mechanical improvements youve collected could you? just picked up one of these cuz my FFB2 just doesnt have the buttons, must say im loving it so far though. My biggest issue with it though is the Y axis, the notchyness isnt too bad, but its the sudden "give" that seems to occur when its under load, that i find most bothersome Other than that im looking to improve this piece of gear with whatever mechanical impovements are going, i noticed i already have to replace the wiring loom in the throttle. Cheers!
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