Luckiest PL-5 EII kill in PvP ?

[cmbaviator]

Hello gents,

I was surprised to get a PL-5 kill at 9+Nm with the ennemy being above me (FL240 / i was at FL110) therefore the rnage is greatly redueced due to gravity not helping. I was like no way i could get a kill but being out of SD-10, that was my only hope before trying to evade the missile.

Guess what, i was shocked when i got the notification of the kill (4YA PvP server).

My bet is that he didn't see is Fox 2 launched and as the F16 doesn't have a Missile Warning System lkike the JF-17 for fox 2, he didn't know that he was flying straight into the PL5-EII.

Is it possible for a PL5 to be able to track by IR a aircraft at 9Nm away and having to climb a lot ? could be a glitch ?

 

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Edited August 27, 2022 by cmbaviator

[Mike_Romeo]

3 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

rnage is greatly redueced due to gravity not helping.

Well thats not how it works. In fact, the range was greatly improved because of the lower air resistance higher up.
 

Quote

Is it possible for a PL5 to be able to track by IR a aircraft at 9Nm away and having to climb a lot ?

Yes, absolutly possible. He was most likely in AB so the missile could see it clearly and the traveled distance is also lower because he flew towards the missile

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Mike_Romeo

[cmbaviator]

14 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Well thats not how it works. In fact, the range was greatly improved because of the lower air resistance higher up.
 

Yes, absolutly possible. He was most likely in AB so the missile could see it clearly and the traveled distance is also lower because he flew towards the missile

 

 

yeah at the same time it has to fight gravity. missile profile are already very aerodynamic friendly so for me it's about gravity

[Mike_Romeo]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

missile profile are already very aerodynamic friendly so for me it's about gravity

Alright let me show 2 pictures. In this first picture, I fired a PL-5 at 500m above sea level at 790km and as you can see, the missile only flew a distance of 5,64NM


Now same test with same parameters but at 12000m above sea level. As you can see, the missile flew a distance of 16NM now. Impressive how much air resistance decreases the performance of missile isnt it ?

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

yeah at the same time it has to fight gravity

Well yes but when the missile has less air resistance, it flies faster and generates more lift holding it longer in the air.

If you want to look yourself, you will find the tacview's below:

12000m Pl-5.zip.acmi500m PL-5.zip.acmi

Edited August 27, 2022 by Mike_Romeo

[Dragon1-1]

You're not shooting uphill, though. In your case, gravity doesn't factor in at all, climbing is very expensive energy-wise. Try launching it upward from 500m, and you'll see it won't travel very far, either.

Note that this is different from a loft. In a loft, a missile goes into thinner air and comes back down at the end. In addition to being in thinner air, it goes more slowly when lofted, and this is useful because drag depends on velocity. In an uphill shot scenario, the missile gets slow and then has to hit the target in this state.

In this case, range was extended by him going full burner and right towards the missile, so it didn't have to do much work. It still had the energy to hit, but it would be vulnerable to evasive maneuvers.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[Napillo]

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're not shooting uphill, though. In your case, gravity doesn't factor in at all, climbing is very expensive energy-wise.

The average of the two numbers is 10.77nm traveled. Since as you said, the missile was fired from 9.74 nm away, it can certainly travel that distance through the air. He's doing the straight horizontal so you can see when it switches to a ballistic path. Assuming the missile has no power when it goes ballistic, then 9.74 is within the average of 10.77. However, as you said, the target aircraft was coming toward you, thus it likely traveled less than 9.74, and probably closer to 6 or less. At that distance, it still has power to course correct and intercept the target, though not for long. Since the target was unaware, and didn't take evasive action, you scored a hit.

One thing about the heaters, if you pop up behind someone unaware, firing at the maximum range does give you a decent chance to hit, if you can remain hidden.

[cmbaviator]

17 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're not shooting uphill, though. In your case, gravity doesn't factor in at all, climbing is very expensive energy-wise. Try launching it upward from 500m, and you'll see it won't travel very far, either.

Note that this is different from a loft. In a loft, a missile goes into thinner air and comes back down at the end. In addition to being in thinner air, it goes more slowly when lofted, and this is useful because drag depends on velocity. In an uphill shot scenario, the missile gets slow and then has to hit the target in this state.

In this case, range was extended by him going full burner and right towards the missile, so it didn't have to do much work. It still had the energy to hit, but it would be vulnerable to evasive maneuvers.

 

thank you.

 

the test above is at level so of course there is only one parameter to consider: the air density.

 

My question is more about when there is a huge altitude difference between you and the target.

 

For example

 

you shoot at 5000 and the target is at 30 000ft, sure the missile will have less air density when climbing but will also have to fight gravity

Now lets reverse, you fire at 30 000ft and the target is at 5000ft, this time the missile will see densier ( more dense ?) air but the gravity will be helping.

 

Which case will have the better range ?

[Mike_Romeo]

10 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Which case will have the better range ?

First one because air density is the bigger factor

[cmbaviator]

15 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

First one because air density is the bigger factor

even on a steep angle ?

[Mike_Romeo]

8 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

even on a steep angle ?

Here ar Pl-5 fired from 1400m reaching only 14km altitude

PL-5 fired from 13,5km raching 62KmPl-5 from 1400m.zip.acmiPl-5 from 13500m.zip.acmi

 

[cmbaviator]

4 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Here ar Pl-5 fired from 1400m reaching only 14km altitude

PL-5 fired from 13,5km raching 62KmPl-5 from 1400m.zip.acmiPl-5 from 13500m.zip.acmi

 

oh I see indeed. thanks for the explanation