Mission 9

[The Gray Weasel]

I'm replaying the campaign again after a year.  Missions 1-8 went fine, no problem.  Mission 9 - the one where you have to intercept the 3x Tu-22 bombers escorted by 4x MiG-23s - BAM!  Brick wall.  I've replayed that mission seven times so far, and I always get killed.  Usually by the SAMs.  It is extremely frustrating.

Before you reply: yes, I read the other threads in this forum about that mission, and yes, I kept in formation with my wingmen and yes, I ordered them to "cover me" so they would go after the MiGs.  The MiGs aren't really the problem.  It's the SA-6 site you have to overfly on the way to the bombers.  And the SA-3 site they overfly a little way beyond that.  And you always have to chase at least one bomber down to gun it (because you only have two missiles), all the while you're high up in thin air with SAMs shooting at you.  If you're lucky enough to gun down the last Tu-22, you're seconds away from dying to a SAM.

Why is the player even "intercepting" Tu-22s that are obviously flying back toward their own lines and over their own SAM coverage?  They're heading 210, down the coast, like they're already done with their mission and they're going back to Sochi to land.  If the mission is to intercept the Tu-22s before they bomb the blue force, then they should be heading 270 or something like that when they appear.  You know...toward the area where the blue forces are?

[SorelRo]

I'll check this again, the bombers are not retreating, they are bombing actually the troops near the coast, and make a big bang. I'll fly it and see if the SAM's are giving me grief, most likely their range was changed with some update and now they are reaching you. SAM's shouldn't have been a problem. 

 

I'll let you know as soon as  I can. 

[SorelRo]

So, I played it a few times, yes the bombers are bombing what they are supposed to be bombing, so they clearly go towards their target, I let them go on their merry way and they cause quite a havoc, now, the second time running the interception, splashed 2 in quick succession with the AIM-9's then I took the last one with the gun, he landed couple of them on me and broke some minor things. I tangled a bit with the Mig-23's to see if I get a bite from the SA-6 or SA-3. I was running low on fuel and I tailed back. Debrief gave me 100 points to pass, yes, there was one SA-6 in the air right when i was taking the bombers out. It was no factor, and 3 more other SA-6's when I was dancing with the MIg's my RWR didn't beep me for launch and I didn't noticed any launches and I made it back safely. I'm curious of what climb profile you are using do you go under 400 KTS on your climb? Do you drop the tanks at any point? 

 

Cheers, 

[The Gray Weasel]

When I hit waypoint 3 over the lake, I'm at full mil power and doing about 500 kts.  When I get the voice line to turn 090 and intercept the bombers, I jettison my tank (and order my flight to do the same), push to full AB, and start heading 090.  I accelerate to Mach 1 before beginning the climb.  So I'm going as fast as I can with as little drag as possible when I begin the climb.

At that point, the RWR shows a "6" at 12:00 and a bunch of "23"s at about 11:00.  Breaking through the clouds, I can see the contrails at about 11:00 high, heading from left to right.  Now here's the dilemma: if I bank left and fly straight toward the bombers, I'm heading straight for the MiG-23s and I'm going to get an AA-7 to the face on my way up.  That happened twice.  If I continue heading 090, aiming ahead of the bombers, that takes me straight over the SA-6 site and I soak up an SA-6 on the way up.  That happened twice, too.  If I'm lucky enough to avoid getting killed by a MiG or the SA-6 on the climb to the bombers, now I'm slow and I'm guaranteed to have to slowly chase at least one bomber down so I can gun it.  By the time I get within gun range of the last bomber, I'm right over the SA-3 site and I eat an SA-3 shortly after gunning the last bomber.  That also happened twice.

Once, I thought to myself, "maybe you're not supposed to go after the bombers until you deal with the MiGs."  So I ignored the bombers, went straight for the MiGs, and killed two.  Wingmen 2 and 3 managed to kill two of the bombers, dying in the process.  After the fight I managed to locate the last bomber in the distance through a combination of AWACs, seeing its jamming on my radar, and its contrail.  I went to full AB again and chased it down veeeeery slloooooowwwwly as it flew along the coast toward Sochi.  At that point I was actually beyond all of the SAM sites on the map.  Caught it and gunned it down with about 500 lbs left in the tanks.  Ran out of fuel on the way home, flew near an SA-6 site and got no RWR warning because without the engines running the RWR had no power, and ate an SA-6 with no warning.

Like I said: extremely frustrating.

I do not understand how you are not having the same problems when you fly the mission.

[SorelRo]

Yeah, going through that I can understand how frustrating it can be, you are doing everything right by what you are saying, you are intercepting the bombers and not the MIG's, at the end of the intercept when i'm getting close to the bombers i'm not slow though, i'm able to be a tad faster than the bombers right when I line up behind them for the missile shot, I wonder if that makes the difference, maybe the climb profile is different and that's why you are ending up slow and the SA-6 can get to you. I'll look and see if those SA-6's can be delayed a bit, to give the player a bit more freedom. 

[The Gray Weasel]

That would be much appreciated.  Right now, it seems like the player needs to follow a very rigid script to have any hope of success.  A little more leeway for the player to tack to the right to avoid the MiGs and lead the bombers for intercept would go a long way.

Finally beat the mission on the eighth try, following said very rigid script.  Only damaged the third bomber and had to follow it all the way home to its base and gun it down on final approach to get the victory cue voice message.  It would be nice if victory could be achieved by forcing the bombers to abort their attack - not necessarily kill all three - but I don't know how feasible that is in the mission editor.

[SorelRo]

16 hours ago, The Gray Weasel said:

That would be much appreciated.  Right now, it seems like the player needs to follow a very rigid script to have any hope of success.  A little more leeway for the player to tack to the right to avoid the MiGs and lead the bombers for intercept would go a long way.

Finally beat the mission on the eighth try, following said very rigid script.  Only damaged the third bomber and had to follow it all the way home to its base and gun it down on final approach to get the victory cue voice message.  It would be nice if victory could be achieved by forcing the bombers to abort their attack - not necessarily kill all three - but I don't know how feasible that is in the mission editor.

That's quite easy to do in ME. however, by doing that I'll have another round of players saying that the victory conditions are too ambiguous Trying to keep everyone happy is tough. I'll put some thought into it and see what I can come up with. 

[The Gray Weasel]

Probably not too many people will complain if you make it easier to win

At any rate, thank you for listening to feedback and being willing to tinker with the mission to make it better.

[SorelRo]

Feedback is always appreciated. Thanks for flying the F-5 and my campaign. 

[Odessa]

Just one more question about that mission #9.
What is the victory condition?

I killed two Tu-22. Damaged third, it flew away with black smoke.
All of them - before they drop bombs.
Then I landed and watched one flying Tu-22 with bombs. Then it disappeared and I cannot tell if he drops bomb or not.
I know that mission is successful if they do not drop bombs.
But 3 of 4 definitely did not do it.
Then I ended the mission and saw draw 50%.
To be honest I expected at least 51%

So question - in order to succeed I have to
-kill them before they drop bombs
- kill all of them
?
Thanks
 

[SorelRo]

All 3 bombers have to be dead, and the ground troops being bombed have to be alive at the end of the mission. If you managed to bag two of them, the third one should be easy. Just get close and close your eyes and he shoots back and gun him down.

[Odessa]

1 hour ago, SorelRo said:

All 3 bombers have to be dead, and the ground troops being bombed have to be alive at the end of the mission. If you managed to bag two of them, the third one should be easy. Just get close and close your eyes and he shoots back and gun him down.

Thanks for quick response.
I passed it. But in this mission I really rely on my bots.
When they take MiGs, I can deal with Tu-22s but if at least one MiG alive - I cannot kill bombers on time.
But next mission, Mission #10 - looks like bots will not help much.
The same as Mission 7. I have to rely on my luck.
I cannot rely on my skills yet


 

[SorelRo]

You will notice, that when you are maintaining your flight integrity and keep your formation until the moment you engage the enemy, the AI is quite helpful, if you allow them to lag behind they can't help you in time and burn too much fuel trying to catch with you. 

[Dragon1-1]

OK, I'm trying this one now, and it's impossible. Four F-5s against four fully armed MiG-23s with unrealistic look-down capabilities, with a SAM interfering, predictably get butchered before they even get close. The wingmates get launched at by a SAM, defend against it, and are picked off by the MiGs.

Also, why is the AWACS vectoring me around Krymsk in a big square? What's the point of it, when the bombers and their targets are the other way (it's obviously not a patrol this close to ground)? Also, telling me to fly at 2000ft in a place where you've got hills 2500ft high. The idea of coming in low would've been nice if the MiGs were realistically unable to pick the F-5s up on radar against the ground, but as it stands, the mission just doesn't play particularly well. 

One way of dealing with it would've been to strip AA-7s from the MiGs (they shouldn't be able to to use them anyway, if you follow the script).

[SorelRo]

I don't think this is a very hard mission. If you make sure you keep your flight together and they climb with you, they can tangle with the Mig 23's quite well, despite the advantage the Migs are having and the radar missiles. If you plan your angles right, you are notching all the way, intercept geometry is not pointing straight at the enemy and turning hard on them. Definitely not an impossible mission. Just maybe throwing you some new challenges. Unless the Mig-23 AI had some drastic changes at the latest update. I'll give it a test nonetheless. 

[Dragon1-1]

MiG-23s are definitely a bit smarter than they used to be. Shortly after the wingmen engage (on their own, at some point they'll just split by themselves), they just get cut up. Even if they dodge the radar guided AA-7, they usually eat an IR guided one. I have yet to see them down a even single one.

14 hours ago, SorelRo said:

If you plan your angles right, you are notching all the way, intercept geometry is not pointing straight at the enemy and turning hard on them. 

Any other intercept geometry gets me shot at by a SAM. I can see the smoke trails, if I keep notching the MiGs, I'll fly into the SAM, and if I try to dodge the SAM, the MiGs get me. As it stands now, realistic tactics are not getting me anywhere. It doesn't really matter if I keep the flight together or not, they're picked off just the same. 

I might try sending them out ahead instead, and bouncing the bombers once they leave the furball behind.

Edited April 20 by Dragon1-1

[SorelRo]

I'll ran a few tests and see how smart the AI is with the new update. I always found a window where I can take down the bombers relatively quick, while the wingman are dealing with the Migs, but, like after any update, that may not be the case anymore.

[Dragon1-1]

Well, I made it, by using a rather cheesy tactic of sending the wingmen way ahead of me to soak up AA-7s, while I waited a while and went after the bombers. Worth noting, I shot both of my Sidewinders, chased down the remaining bomber with guns (no easy matter due to the turret) and then, the MiGs caught me. Thankfully, they were out of AA-7s at this point, but I got launched at twice before a friendly MANPADS took them out. Wingmen all died relatively fast (except one, who couldn't occupy the whole pack by himself), scored no kills, but they distracted the escorts for (barely) long enough.

One suggestion that probably had not come up: change the formation. I noticed that by default, they're in echelon right, which is just about the worst formation you can have them in, since it puts them all on the outside of every single enroute turn, and puts you closest to the MiGs. If you swap sides, they're better positioning for baiting Apexes mutual fire support. They should be set up in echelon left by default.