meistro Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 What exactly is the point of using TWS radar submodes while flying Russian planes, if all it does is just attempt an automatic STT of a target (at .85 of the missle range no less)? The entire point of TWS, atleast as far as western avionocs is concerned, is so that you can track, and fire at multiple targets without having to enter into a STT lock. Actually I think that in most US planes today, even in RWS mode, the contact must be bugged twice to even enter into a STT lock. Which makes sense since an STT lock is totally uneccasary for use in conjunction with the primary weapon (AMRAAM). Which brings me to my next question...why doesnt the R-77 work in similar fashion? Why is it neccesary for an ARH missle to be fired in conjunction with a STT lock. In other sims (well atleast in Falcon) the MiG-29 and Su-27s can fire AA-12 missles without entering into a STT. Now Falcon could probably have it wrong (and obviously they have part of it wrong seen as how the Su-27 doesnt even employ the AA-12 missle), but I thought that it was based on some sort of common knowledge. And further more I thought that the MIG-29 could fire on atleast two targets simutaniously with the R-77 (AA-12...whatever its called).
Alfa Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Re: Russian TWS, and the R-77 missle... Hi meistro, The point to the SNP(TWS) mode is to determine the tactical situation and assist the pilot in predicting which target is the most likely to first enter his engagement range, select this target and calculate engagement parameters for the chosen weapon. This can only be done from a TWS mode, as predicting where different contacts will "end up" requires tracking their movements - in RWS mode the radar only determines range and altitude of contacts.....not speed and heading. Furthermore, selecting a target for engagement in SNP mode does not alert the target prematurely....i.e. the RWR of the target does not know when it is being locked by a radar operating in SNP mode - only when the tracking radar is switching to STT mode to support a SARH launch. If you by-pass the SNP mode by going directly from RWS to STT to track a target, the target will be alerted immedeatly. You wrote: The entire point of TWS, atleast as far as western avionocs is concerned, is so that you can track, and fire at multiple targets without having to enter into a STT lock That is a misconception. The AMRAAM did not enter the US inventory until after the Gulf War (in 1990), before that the main BVR weapon was the AIM-7 SARH missile......but the radars of US fighters like the F-16, F-15 and F-18 had TWS modes long before that.....TWS radar modes were not developed for ARH missiles - ARH missiles were developed to take advantage of the TWS mode ;) Which brings me to my next question...why doesnt the R-77 work in similar fashion? Why is it neccesary for an ARH missle to be fired in conjunction with a STT lock. The R-77 works exactly as an AMRAAM :) . It is not the missile which is differnt in nature, but the radars of the MiG-29 and Su-27 ;) . I will explain, The radars of the MiG-29(NiiR-N019) and Su-27(NiiP-N001) were developed in the early eighties for the R-27R SARH missile, and their entire operation is geared for deploying this. The R-77 missile is contempory with the AMRAAM - i.e. didnt appear until late eighties - early nineties and was developed for a new radar design....namely the NiiR-N010 "Zhuk", which is very similar in design and functionality to the APG-65/73. The "Zhuk" radar was intended for the new MiG-29M(9-15) and MiG-29K(9-31) multirole fighters. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was no funding for the induction of these new MiG-29 multirole versions, and instead the focus of the MIG corporation shifted to an upgrade program for the earlier version(9-12) already in service. The first such upgrade was the MiG-29S(9-13)- to begin with it only included the addition of an internal jammer, increased internal fuel capacity and improved electro-mechanical flight control system, but shortly after this was supplemented with an upgrade to the N019 radar. The upgraded radar was designated "N019M" - it was fitted with a new more powerful main processor, and was modifed to recognise and compute engagement parameters for the new R-77 missile. However, the ability to "communicate" with the R-77 missile was sort of "backfitted" and the upgrade did not change the basic nature of the radar. Reportedly the MiG-29S version(9-13S) which recieved the updated N019M radar/R-77 support can engage two targets simultaneously, but there is still some uncertainty about what exactly that means....i.e. whether it means being able to engage two targets simultaneously directly from a modified SNP mode( and provide midcourse guidance for both of them), or whether the "dual engagement" capability is something of an exageration.....e.g. only amounts to the ability to have two missiles in the air homing at each their target due simply to the ARH nature of the R-77 missile :) In other sims (well atleast in Falcon) the MiG-29 and Su-27s can fire AA-12 missles without entering into a STT. Now Falcon could probably have it wrong (and obviously they have part of it wrong seen as how the Su-27 doesnt even employ the AA-12 missle), but I thought that it was based on some sort of common knowledge. And further more I thought that the MIG-29 could fire on atleast two targets simutaniously with the R-77 (AA-12...whatever its called). Well in that case Falcon 4 did get it wrong :lol: ....neither the MiG-29(9-12) nor the Su-27(or Su-33 for that matter....same radar) have the ability to deploy the R-77 missile :) . Only newer- or upgraded versions of those fighters have this capability :) Cheers, - JJ. 1 JJ
Kenan Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Yo Alfa, I read somewhere that RuAF has only a small percentage of MIG-29S (upgraded 9-12's) and that most of it's Fulcrum fleet is made of 'old' version. Is this true? Thx in advance! 8) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Commanding Officer of: 2nd Company 1st financial guard battalion "Mrcine" See our squads here and our . Croatian radio chat for DCS World
Alfa Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Yo Alfa, I read somewhere that RuAF has only a small percentage of MIG-29S (upgraded 9-12's) and that most of it's Fulcrum fleet is made of 'old' version. Is this true? Thx in advance! 8) Yes it is true - the standard MiG-29(9-12) is by far the most common :) But in connection with the MiG-29S, it should be mentioned that the VVS(Russian airforce) operates both the 9-13 and 9-13S version. The 9-13 is the version with the internal Gardeniya-1 FU jammer and extra internal fuel capacity(the "humpback" airframe) but with the standard N019 radar(no R-77 support), while the 9-13S version in addition has the upgraded N019M radar/R-77 support. IIRC only a single regiment operates the 9-13S version. Cheers, - JJ. JJ
meistro Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Re: Russian TWS, and the R-77 missle... That is a misconception. The AMRAAM did not enter the US inventory until after the Gulf War (in 1990), before that the main BVR weapon was the AIM-7 SARH missile......but the radars of US fighters like the F-16, F-15 and F-18 had TWS modes long before that.....TWS radar modes were not developed for ARH missiles - ARH missiles were developed to take advantage of the TWS mode ;) Actually I was thinking of the F-14 when I wrote that...I believe that the AN/AWG-9 radar was the first to introduce the whole TWS concept (among other things). This of course brought about the much hyped (but unproven) Phoenix missle system. Aside from that you are right, and thanks for the information.
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