Does CAS do anything? AI SEAD issues.

[Diablo 1-1]

So what is considered losses on the enemy side? Do we have to destroyed the entire group for it to count for anything? A convoy of vehicles was reduced to all but 2 vehicles and it reported the ground units suffered no losses lol. The AI target a ship with two mavericks and a LGB and fucked off, didn't even kill it. Is there any reason to do CAS at all because it sure doesn't feel like it. (have track)

For the SEAD issues it is once again the AI going after the stupid Rapiers. The SA-10 was active I can promise you since I launched HARMs on it, told my wingman to attack air defense and it chose to go after the Rapiers instead. (dont have track)

Edited December 24, 2023 by Diablo 1-1

[Sandman Simulations]

2 hours ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

So what is considered losses on the enemy side? Do we have to destroyed the entire group for it to count for anything? A convoy of vehicles was reduced to all but 2 vehicles and it reported the ground units suffered no losses lol. The AI target a ship with two mavericks and a LGB and fucked off, didn't even kill it. Is there any reason to do CAS at all because it sure doesn't feel like it. (have track)

For the SEAD issues it is once again the AI going after the stupid Rapiers. The SA-10 was active I can promise you since I launched HARMs on it, told my wingman to attack air defense and it chose to go after the Rapiers instead. (dont have track)

 

Hi again,

Thanks for your report.

Ground group (usually 6 units) needs to be destroyed below 25% to be counted destroyed. That means one unit can survive. One group must be destroyed to show "minor loses" in debriefing. It could be more realistic to count group destroyed earlier. Because same rules apply for both sides it possibly would not change the balance as ground war situation is calculated by balance of destroyed troops from both sides.

I tested early stage mission couple of times with two CAS flights. Together with ground troops they managed to destroy one or two enemy groups. It depends on stage of ground battle does this make a difference. I wouldn't say it's useless to fly CAS missions. Actually later in later stages I think it is impossible to progress without CAS by your squadron or Air Force Warthogs. 

The SEAD issue is frustrating. AI is told to attack long range SAMs first. Still it doesn't always do that. In which SEAD area/areas you had that problem? It maybe could be possible to make Rapiers invisible until long range SAMs are destroyed. It just would need quite a large amount of script lines. But maybe I'll try if it would work.

 

 

[Diablo 1-1]

5 hours ago, Sandman Simulations said:

Hi again,

Thanks for your report.

Ground group (usually 6 units) needs to be destroyed below 25% to be counted destroyed. That means one unit can survive. One group must be destroyed to show "minor loses" in debriefing. It could be more realistic to count group destroyed earlier. Because same rules apply for both sides it possibly would not change the balance as ground war situation is calculated by balance of destroyed troops from both sides.

I tested early stage mission couple of times with two CAS flights. Together with ground troops they managed to destroy one or two enemy groups. It depends on stage of ground battle does this make a difference. I wouldn't say it's useless to fly CAS missions. Actually later in later stages I think it is impossible to progress without CAS by your squadron or Air Force Warthogs. 

The SEAD issue is frustrating. AI is told to attack long range SAMs first. Still it doesn't always do that. In which SEAD area/areas you had that problem? It maybe could be possible to make Rapiers invisible until long range SAMs are destroyed. It just would need quite a large amount of script lines. But maybe I'll try if it would work.

 

 

Okay that's understandable for CAS. I just wanted to know whats needed to count as being destroyed. Just knowing the amount that needs to be destroyed will help a lot. The particular situation I was in just sucked because the AI wasted all those weapons just to not kill a ship, especially since there were already juicy ground targets. This was my most important question because I just wanted to know what was require of me to get the results I wanted. The SEAD issue is probably just a skill issue but....

 

For the SEAD the problem area is around Sirri AFB. I'm setting up a mission where I have 2-CAP B, 3-SEAD B, 5-OCA Strike Bandar Lengeh. My load out was 2xHarms and 6x TALDS, wingman was Harms and Aim120s. I understood if 3 didnt strike the SA-10 because I believe they got into a dog fight or the SA-10 wasnt on at the time. I went in close to activate the SA-10 and launch my TALDs. Made a loop back launched my HARMs then old wing man to and he went after the Rapiers lol. Then 5 got shot down so I just quit because I didnt like the results lol. I'll give it one more go with a different strategy, I'll see if I can go in with CAP just to get the SA-10 active, then give 3 the command to start mission.

 

It's not that big of a deal since I could just bomb the Rapier site to get the AD% to 80-90 and the SA-10 from that Airfield will be gone. I was just trying to go for the immersion factor and take out the biggest AD unit first. It's more of my frustration with the AI, it's not just DCS though. I've been having problems with friendly AI in Arma 3, it is also stupid.

[Sandman Simulations]

3 hours ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

Okay that's understandable for CAS. I just wanted to know whats needed to count as being destroyed. Just knowing the amount that needs to be destroyed will help a lot. The particular situation I was in just sucked because the AI wasted all those weapons just to not kill a ship, especially since there were already juicy ground targets. This was my most important question because I just wanted to know what was require of me to get the results I wanted. The SEAD issue is probably just a skill issue but....

 

For the SEAD the problem area is around Sirri AFB. I'm setting up a mission where I have 2-CAP B, 3-SEAD B, 5-OCA Strike Bandar Lengeh. My load out was 2xHarms and 6x TALDS, wingman was Harms and Aim120s. I understood if 3 didnt strike the SA-10 because I believe they got into a dog fight or the SA-10 wasnt on at the time. I went in close to activate the SA-10 and launch my TALDs. Made a loop back launched my HARMs then old wing man to and he went after the Rapiers lol. Then 5 got shot down so I just quit because I didnt like the results lol. I'll give it one more go with a different strategy, I'll see if I can go in with CAP just to get the SA-10 active, then give 3 the command to start mission.

 

It's not that big of a deal since I could just bomb the Rapier site to get the AD% to 80-90 and the SA-10 from that Airfield will be gone. I was just trying to go for the immersion factor and take out the biggest AD unit first. It's more of my frustration with the AI, it's not just DCS though. I've been having problems with friendly AI in Arma 3, it is also stupid.

If SA-unit will be active, it should be when any off blue aircraft approaces. It doesn't need to be you. So it should work like you tried.

I will take a look and try to find if there is some way around this SEAD problem.

[Diablo 1-1]

Thanks again it could just be a AI wingman devil 1-2 issue and not you at all. Maybe I'll just fling 9 Talds in that direction. Would Talds active it as well or would I need to get closer to active it and then launch the Talds? I'm just not sure if it counts as an aircraft 

[Sandman Simulations]

7 hours ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

Thanks again it could just be a AI wingman devil 1-2 issue and not you at all. Maybe I'll just fling 9 Talds in that direction. Would Talds active it as well or would I need to get closer to active it and then launch the Talds? I'm just not sure if it counts as an aircraft 

I don't think they activate it. It is any blue aircraft inside about 40 miles when it should activate so still out of their firing range. The reason for late activation is first of all performance issue but also in real life professional SAM crew would keep radar down as long as possible.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Sandman Simulations

[Diablo 1-1]

I'm was an air defender when I was in the military. I worked with the Sentinel radar, Patriot(at ADAB), and C-RAM. In Patriot, we didn't always have people radiating but the US operates different than most countries. We always assume to have air superiority, so as Patriot we only cared about TBMs and ARMs. Just to give my background, not that it matters since this is just a game lol

 

Anyways yes I agree with the reasoning of it them being off. Again I'm just trying to understand the triggers and goals so I can accomplish what I want to happen. Now that I understand they only active on a blue aircraft and not TALDs I believe I have a better understanding of what I need to do.

 

Thanks again, just trying to get some clarification on what's needs to get certain results. 

 

Like now I know as CAS to focus a group instead of just taking out things at random.

I love the campaign, it's what I'm looking for ED to do. I just wish it wasn't just the hornet but I know how much work you put into this. I've made my own missions and messed about with moose and mist. I'm just not as good or patient enough as you guys.

 

By the way, have a Happy Holidays whatever you celebrate.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Diablo 1-1

[Sandman Simulations]

27 minutes ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

I'm was an air defender when I was in the military. I worked with the Sentinel radar, Patriot(at ADAB), and C-RAM. In Patriot, we didn't always have people radiating but the US operates different than most countries. We always assume to have air superiority, so as Patriot we only cared about TBMs and ARMs. Just to give my background, not that it matters since this is just a game lol

 

Anyways yes I agree with the reasoning of it them being off. Again I'm just trying to understand the triggers and goals so I can accomplish what I want to happen. Now that I understand they only active on a blue aircraft and not TALDs I believe I have a better understanding of what I need to do.

 

Thanks again, just trying to get some clarification on what's needs to get certain results. 

 

Like now I know as CAS to focus a group instead of just taking out things at random.

I love the campaign, it's what I'm looking for ED to do. I just wish it wasn't just the hornet but I know how much work you put into this. I've made my own missions and messed about with moose and mist. I'm just not as good or patient enough as you guys.

 

By the way, have a Happy Holidays whatever you celebrate.

 

You certainly know more about air defense systems than most campaign makers.

I will test tomorrow if it would be possible to do something to prevent AI attacking Rapiers first. 

And Happy Holidays too

[Sandman Simulations]

15 hours ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

I'm was an air defender when I was in the military. I worked with the Sentinel radar, Patriot(at ADAB), and C-RAM. In Patriot, we didn't always have people radiating but the US operates different than most countries. We always assume to have air superiority, so as Patriot we only cared about TBMs and ARMs. Just to give my background, not that it matters since this is just a game lol

 

Anyways yes I agree with the reasoning of it them being off. Again I'm just trying to understand the triggers and goals so I can accomplish what I want to happen. Now that I understand they only active on a blue aircraft and not TALDs I believe I have a better understanding of what I need to do.

 

Thanks again, just trying to get some clarification on what's needs to get certain results. 

 

Like now I know as CAS to focus a group instead of just taking out things at random.

I love the campaign, it's what I'm looking for ED to do. I just wish it wasn't just the hornet but I know how much work you put into this. I've made my own missions and messed about with moose and mist. I'm just not as good or patient enough as you guys.

 

By the way, have a Happy Holidays whatever you celebrate.

 

I made some tests.

Track 1: For some reason today SEAD flights tasked for area Bravo did attack first against SA-10 (as they should do) and even managed to take it out.

Track 2: On lower AD-levels they went for Rapiers even if SA-6 was there.

Track 3: Third record is after changing order to attack SA-6 from wp 3 to wp 2. They shot one HARM to SA-6 and then went for Rapiers. This time it was enough to take SA-6 out

Track 4: Even after the change above if SA-10 is there, SEAD doesn't attack SA-6 after taking out SA-10 and Strike flight is in trouble. 

It seems that there are no dead proof ways to get AI SEAD to attack the most dangerous targets first. I will next check if making Rapiers invisible until SA-10 and SA-6 are down would help. I'm not sure I can make it work but lets have a look.

 

Track 1.acmi Track 2.acmi Track 3.acmi Track 4.acmi

[Sandman Simulations]

22 hours ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

I'm was an air defender when I was in the military. I worked with the Sentinel radar, Patriot(at ADAB), and C-RAM. In Patriot, we didn't always have people radiating but the US operates different than most countries. We always assume to have air superiority, so as Patriot we only cared about TBMs and ARMs. Just to give my background, not that it matters since this is just a game lol

 

Anyways yes I agree with the reasoning of it them being off. Again I'm just trying to understand the triggers and goals so I can accomplish what I want to happen. Now that I understand they only active on a blue aircraft and not TALDs I believe I have a better understanding of what I need to do.

 

Thanks again, just trying to get some clarification on what's needs to get certain results. 

 

Like now I know as CAS to focus a group instead of just taking out things at random.

I love the campaign, it's what I'm looking for ED to do. I just wish it wasn't just the hornet but I know how much work you put into this. I've made my own missions and messed about with moose and mist. I'm just not as good or patient enough as you guys.

 

By the way, have a Happy Holidays whatever you celebrate.

 

I found that making all Rapiers and AAA invisible for each SEAD area until SA-10 and SA-6 radars of that area are destroyed makes AI SEAD flights behave better. They target higher threats first and only then the Rapiers (because they can't see them). Because there is 49 missions to repair it will take a huge amount of time. But I think this is quite important problem and I wouldn't count on that ED will change the AI to follow given orders so I will make it when I find the time to do it.

[Diablo 1-1]

Holy cow that is some serious testing, I'm impressed. I'm currently out of town visiting family but will be back on the 3rd. I'll take a look at those tracks since I'm curious to see them take out the SA-10. AI usually never gets enough altitude for the harms to get the speed to defeat the SA-10.

I was afraid that would be the issue. Take your time for your own sanity. I know how much work it is. I've only been around DCS for about a year now so I'm not going anywhere.

I still have faith ED will improve the AI, I just think that is probably 5 years out or so. Like I believe their focus is getting the game to perform better. Can have the best AI in the world but if your performance is terrible, you won't be able to have that many AI to start with. They do need to fix the broken AI stuff, like getting stuck in the runway or the AI on the super carrier is awful as well.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Diablo 1-1

[Sandman Simulations]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:37 PM, Diablo 1-1 said:

Holy cow that is some serious testing, I'm impressed. I'm currently out of town visiting family but will be back on the 3rd. I'll take a look at those tracks since I'm curious to see them take out the SA-10. AI usually never gets enough altitude for the harms to get the speed to defeat the SA-10.

I was afraid that would be the issue. Take your time for your own sanity. I know how much work it is. I've only been around DCS for about a year now so I'm not going anywhere.

I still have faith ED will improve the AI, I just think that is probably 5 years out or so. Like I believe their focus is getting the game to perform better. Can have the best AI in the world but if your performance is terrible, you won't be able to have that many AI to start with. They do need to fix the broken AI stuff, like getting stuck in the runway or the AI on the super carrier is awful as well.

 

I sent ED a patch to fix this SAM/SEAD issue 9th of January but for some reason it wasn't released in todays update. I'm very sorry about that and I'm trying to make them release it asap.

Patch will make SEAD flights prioritize SA-10 and SA-6 over Rapiers. They should have done it in first place but AI just ignores those commands. Now Rapiers of each SEAD area will be visible for AI only after SA-10 and SA-6 sites of the area are destroyed.

[Diablo 1-1]

45 minutes ago, Sandman Simulations said:

I sent ED a patch to fix this SAM/SEAD issue 9th of January but for some reason it wasn't released in todays update. I'm very sorry about that and I'm trying to make them release it asap.

Patch will make SEAD flights prioritize SA-10 and SA-6 over Rapiers. They should have done it in first place but AI just ignores those commands. Now Rapiers of each SEAD area will be visible for AI only after SA-10 and SA-6 sites of the area are destroyed.

Dope I can't wait. I've been keeping an eye out for updates. Not big deal, thanks for the heads up. Been looking for a reason to get back into the F-18. I really appreciate all the hard work and effort you put into it. I'm working on creating a dynamic battlefield using Moose, so I can understand how much work you put into it.

[Diablo 1-1]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:36 AM, Sandman Simulations said:

I sent ED a patch to fix this SAM/SEAD issue 9th of January but for some reason it wasn't released in todays update. I'm very sorry about that and I'm trying to make them release it asap.

Patch will make SEAD flights prioritize SA-10 and SA-6 over Rapiers. They should have done it in first place but AI just ignores those commands. Now Rapiers of each SEAD area will be visible for AI only after SA-10 and SA-6 sites of the area are destroyed.

Looking at the patch notes it doesnt look like your update ever went through? I could be mistaken.

[Sandman Simulations]

19 minutes ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

Looking at the patch notes it doesnt look like your update ever went through? I could be mistaken.

 

19 minutes ago, Diablo 1-1 said:

Looking at the patch notes it doesnt look like your update ever went through? I could be mistaken.

I was almost ready to get angry but it is there. Finally! 

DCS: F/A-18C Flaming Sunrise Campaign by Sandman Simulations

• All missions – Air defense visibility adjusted to get AI SEAD flights attack higher priority targets over Rapiers and AAA

Edited April 10 by Sandman Simulations

[Diablo 1-1]

2 hours ago, Sandman Simulations said:

 

I was almost ready to get angry but it is there. Finally! 

DCS: F/A-18C Flaming Sunrise Campaign by Sandman Simulations

• All missions – Air defense visibility adjusted to get AI SEAD flights attack higher priority targets over Rapiers and AAA

 

Okay thank you awesome. I just must have missed it. Perfect time to get back into the F-18! Thanks again.