How close is 1.1 demo AAM performance to 1.1 rel? WARN Imag

D-Scythe · March 16, 2005

Fired against high-altitude non-manoeuvring targets approaching head-on, the R-77RVV-AE has a range of 100 km, with the seeker locking on at around 20 km, and a maximum speed of Mach 4. At short range, it can engage targets manoeuvring at up to 12g.

From the IAF site that Deathangel seems to be so fond of.

I bolded the key words. If you're target was a non-manuevering F-15 going Mach 2 at 44 000ft in Lock On, you'd be able to kill it 100 km away using missile over-ride and the R-77 in a MiG-29S. However, I do think that the R-77 needs a little extra range (IIRC, the R-77 has a slightly longer burn time because of a bigger motor despite being approx. the same size), and the AIM-120 should have a lot less drag than it currently is in Lock On. It's profile is much sleeker and cleaner than any missile besides the MICA, and accordinly should glide just as well (again, which it doesn't in Lock On).

And of course, both missiles should have equal ability to counter ECM and chaff, which they currently don't in Lock On, which is still partial to the R-77.

D-Scythe · March 16, 2005

BTW, I was just briefing through the site, and there are many inaccuracies despite being an 'official' IAF site.

- says the R-73RDM2 has a max speed of Mach 4 while the R-27ER/ET has a max speed of Mach 2.5

- gives the range of the R-27ET as 170 km and the R-27ER as 70 km

- says the Sea Eagle travels at Mach 1.1 when it is a fact that the Sea Eagle is a *subsonic* anti-ship cruise missile

- R-77 can intercept Patriot SAMs and AIM-120 missiles in flight. Absolutely false - unless fired from head on, there's no way that the a slower missile can intercept a faster missile, no matter how good the seeker is

- the French Matra 530D is claimed to be a Mach 5 hypersonic weapon

- a few of the other weapon pages link to FAS website, which speaks for itself

Again, don't base things around a single website ;) Some of the stuff on there are probably true, but others only partially true. There's no way I can say that it's false, since I'm not military, but for me, the credibility of that site has just been knocked down a few pegs.

wsoul2k · March 16, 2005

BTW, I was just briefing through the site, and there are many inaccuracies despite being an 'official' IAF site.

- says the R-73RDM2 has a max speed of Mach 4 while the R-27ER/ET has a max speed of Mach 2.5

- gives the range of the R-27ET as 170 km and the R-27ER as 70 km

- says the Sea Eagle travels at Mach 1.1 when it is a fact that the Sea Eagle is a *subsonic* anti-ship cruise missile

- R-77 can intercept Patriot SAMs and AIM-120 missiles in flight. Absolutely false - unless fired from head on, there's no way that the a slower missile can intercept a faster missile, no matter how good the seeker is

- the French Matra 530D is claimed to be a Mach 5 hypersonic weapon

- a few of the other weapon pages link to FAS website, which speaks for itself

Again, don't base things around a single website ;) Some of the stuff on there are probably true, but others only partially true. There's no way I can say that it's false, since I'm not military, but for me, the credibility of that site has just been knocked down a few pegs.

So again we have an NO WIN condition, the point is ...we cant compare R-77 or the AIM-120 becase we dont have acurate info for it.

IMHO both of then are very good i only wanna a litle more range to R-77

March 16, 2005

- says the R-73RDM2 has a max speed of Mach 4 while the R-27ER/ET has a max speed of Mach 2.5

Well, the R-73RDM2 DOES have a max speed of mach 4. As for the R-27, it would indicate longer burn time, which is exactly how it is.

- gives the range of the R-27ET as 170 km and the R-27ER as 70 km

130km for R-27TE. And perhaps it IS. :roll:

- R-77 can intercept Patriot SAMs and AIM-120 missiles in flight. Absolutely false - unless fired from head on, there's no way that the a slower missile can intercept a faster missile, no matter how good the seeker is

Absolutely false - because you say so? :roll:

- the French Matra 530D is claimed to be a Mach 5 hypersonic weapon

And most of sites claim mach 4.5+, so mach 5 could very well be true :roll:

- a few of the other weapon pages link to FAS website, which speaks for itself

I didn't find links to fas.org :roll:

but for me, the credibility of that site has just been knocked down a few pegs.

Sucks to be you.

Chizh · March 16, 2005

I wish to tell you how these two missiles are simulated in game. Probably some people also will not believe that. AIM-120 and R-77 are equal on all constants except for range. R-77 has on 10 % greater range than AIM-120, because of the greater engine.

Unfortunately we as you have no sufficient information for simulating these missiles, because both of them are confidential, therefore we have make such decision before release 1.0. Once again I shall repeat the code of both missiles is absolutely identical except range.

Wolverine · March 16, 2005

I wish to tell you how these two missiles are simulated in game. Probably some people also will not believe that. AIM-120 and R-77 are equal on all constants except for range. R-77 has on 10 % greater range than AIM-120, because of the greater engine.
Unfortunately we as you have no sufficient information for simulating these missiles, because both of them are confidential, therefore we have make such decision before release 1.0. Once again I shall repeat the code of both missiles is absolutely identical except range.

Finally some closure. :)

Thanks Chizh,

although the children will find something else to complain about. :P

(Maybe even this reply :lol: )

wsoul2k · March 16, 2005

I wish to tell you how these two missiles are simulated in game. Probably some people also will not believe that. AIM-120 and R-77 are equal on all constants except for range. R-77 has on 10 % greater range than AIM-120, because of the greater engine.
Unfortunately we as you have no sufficient information for simulating these missiles, because both of them are confidential, therefore we have make such decision before release 1.0. Once again I shall repeat the code of both missiles is absolutely identical except range.

Tks Chizh...i think this put an END at least in Lock On about o who is betheror not....both of then are EQUAL the only diference is the RANGE

But i have a question to you...

Some points First.

In Lock On manual (pdf) teh max range to the AIM-120 is stated as 50 Km. If the Range of R-77 is 10% greater so the max Range for the R-77 should be 55 Km.

In Lock on Manual the Max range to R-77 is stated as 90 Km ...i think it is in a Higth profile

1- Firts question ...whats is wrong ? the range staed of 90 Km or the 55 Km (50 +10%) and what is modeled in Lock On ?

BTW the range staed to the R-27RE in a low profile is stated as 30 Km i never see no one firing at this range going in a Low profile

March 16, 2005

Attention, merrikans! No more whining about R-77 being inferior to the AMRAAM, period.

1- Firts question ...whats is wrong ? the range staed of 90 Km or the 55 Km (50 +10%) and what is modeled in Lock On ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Missiles/index.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Missiles/R-77.html :D

BTW the range staed to the R-27RE in a low profile is stated as 30 Km i never see no one firing at this range going in a Low profile

Head-to-head shots.

D-Scythe · March 16, 2005

I wish to tell you how these two missiles are simulated in game. Probably some people also will not believe that. AIM-120 and R-77 are equal on all constants except for range. R-77 has on 10 % greater range than AIM-120, because of the greater engine.
Unfortunately we as you have no sufficient information for simulating these missiles, because both of them are confidential, therefore we have make such decision before release 1.0. Once again I shall repeat the code of both missiles is absolutely identical except range.

Then they are NOT equal Chizh. Nothing against you, but IMO, you guys overlooked something. You said that the R-77 is modelled exactly the same as the AIM-120 except for range - because of longer burn-time - correct? Then both missiles will have exactly the same drag, correct? Well, then because of its longer burn time, the R-77 will not only have greater range, but you are also giving it more energy in the terminal phase. Thus, with the longer boost time, the R-77 will have both a range and a terminal end-game energy advantage over the AIM-120.

And *both* can't be true. In terms of physical performance, the R-77 probably has greater range and greater end-game agility, but the AIM-120 should have greater end-game *energy* - i.e. more speed. Just look at their cross-sectional profiles. The lattice control surfaces on the R-77, while giving the missile outstanding agility, *must* produce more drag than the AIM-120, whose profile is like a bullet in comparison.

And that's just not fair. Nobody's denying that the R-77 is a fearsome weapon, but Lock On is giving the R-77 the best of both missile designs (i.e. lattice vs. planar fins) over the AIM-120. You cannot say they are modelled equally, and no, this is not closure, until something else turns up.

Chizh, I got one question for you. In Lock On V1.00, the original release, the top speed of the R-77 was less than that of the AIM-120's, but it had a longer burn-time to compensate, thus range and performance was more or less equal. Then in the V1.01-1.02 patches, ED made both the AIM-120 and the R-77 exactly the same, except for range. What changed? What caused you guys to give the R-77 the speed of the AIM-120 as well as greater range?

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to ignore it as you wish.

And Deathangel, if you briefed through the Indian site yourself instead of just checking out the R-77 page, you'll see the mistakes. Unfortunately, you didn't - you're obviously clueless, and do not possess an ability to reason. At all. You do not even *try* to see things from the other side. So our discussion ends here.

March 16, 2005

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Quit whining, merrikan scum! mwahahahaha :finga:

Wolverine · March 16, 2005

This is going TOO far.

March 16, 2005

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Quit whining, merrikan scum! mwahahahaha :finga:

I guess we know who the asshat is. Your parents must be proud.

Chizh · March 16, 2005

In Lock On manual (pdf) teh max range to the AIM-120 is stated as 50 Km. If the Range of R-77 is 10% greater so the max Range for the R-77 should be 55 Km.

Yes its true. It's a right data from LO for 10 000 m altitude.

In Lock on Manual the Max range to R-77 is stated as 90 Km ...i think it is in a Higth profile

For the very high launch only, more than 17 000 m.

1- Firts question ...whats is wrong ? the range staed of 90 Km or the 55 Km (50 +10%) and what is modeled in Lock On ?

55 Km at 10 000 m altitude.

90 Km it is maximal ballistic range for 17 000 m altitude.

Chizh · March 16, 2005

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Quit whining, merrikan scum! mwahahahaha :finga:

You behave as the fool. Try to behave adequately. Consider that this reproof for insults. The second will not be.

Chizh · March 16, 2005

...
And *both* can't be true. In terms of physical performance, the R-77 probably has greater range and greater end-game agility, but the AIM-120 should have greater end-game *energy* - i.e. more speed. Just look at their cross-sectional profiles. The lattice control surfaces on the R-77, while giving the missile outstanding agility, *must* produce more drag than the AIM-120, whose profile is like a bullet in comparison.

And that's just not fair. Nobody's denying that the R-77 is a fearsome weapon, but Lock On is giving the R-77 the best of both missile designs (i.e. lattice vs. planar fins) over the AIM-120. You cannot say they are modelled equally, and no, this is not closure, until something else turns up.

Chizh, I got one question for you. In Lock On V1.00, the original release, the top speed of the R-77 was less than that of the AIM-120's, but it had a longer burn-time to compensate, thus range and performance was more or less equal. Then in the V1.01-1.02 patches, ED made both the AIM-120 and the R-77 exactly the same, except for range. What changed? What caused you guys to give the R-77 the speed of the AIM-120 as well as greater range?
...

Tomorrow I shall count a drag factor and maximum impulse for both missiles and I shall answer you.

March 17, 2005

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Quit whining, merrikan scum! mwahahahaha :finga:

I guess we know who the asshat is. Your parents must be proud.

Yes, they are. No pro-merrikan rubbish here.

March 17, 2005

Yes, they are. No pro-merrikan rubbish here.

Let me guess, you're still in High School.

Alfa · March 17, 2005

Yes, they are. No pro-merrikan rubbish here.

Let me guess, you're still in High School.

This ends RIGHT NOW!

- JJ.

Alfa · March 17, 2005

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Quit whining, merrikan scum! mwahahahaha :finga:

DeathAngelBR,

Continiue this nonsense and you will get yourself banned :x

- JJ.

March 17, 2005

Yes, they are. No pro-merrikan rubbish here.

Let me guess, you're still in High School.

Wrong again. Going to university, and maybe aeronautic engineering in 2 years.

GGTharos · March 17, 2005

...
And *both* can't be true. In terms of physical performance, the R-77 probably has greater range and greater end-game agility, but the AIM-120 should have greater end-game *energy* - i.e. more speed. Just look at their cross-sectional profiles. The lattice control surfaces on the R-77, while giving the missile outstanding agility, *must* produce more drag than the AIM-120, whose profile is like a bullet in comparison.

And that's just not fair. Nobody's denying that the R-77 is a fearsome weapon, but Lock On is giving the R-77 the best of both missile designs (i.e. lattice vs. planar fins) over the AIM-120. You cannot say they are modelled equally, and no, this is not closure, until something else turns up.

Chizh, I got one question for you. In Lock On V1.00, the original release, the top speed of the R-77 was less than that of the AIM-120's, but it had a longer burn-time to compensate, thus range and performance was more or less equal. Then in the V1.01-1.02 patches, ED made both the AIM-120 and the R-77 exactly the same, except for range. What changed? What caused you guys to give the R-77 the speed of the AIM-120 as well as greater range?
...

Tomorrow I shall count a drag factor and maximum impulse for both missiles and I shall answer you.

Hi Chizh ... may I suggest having a look at minizap (actually, I bet you already have) ... it uses what you would call, I think, an 'AFM' for the ballistics. :) It is very interesting to make comparisons with it.

I always thought that the R-77 falls slightly short on range in it because of its greater weight (thus more rocket fuel to accelerate longer in order to reach top speed, possibly higher impulse as well) and the greater surface introduced by the vanes causes more drag as well. I don't know if the tail fins really create more drag or no, but the vanes are pretty huge if they count for surface area.

Alfa · March 17, 2005

Hi GGTharos,

Just a quick note on the weight thing - the weight difference between the AIM-120 and R-77 is not 50kg.

The R-77 weighs 175 kg and I believe the AIM-120 weighs 150kg....so that would be a difference of 25kg.

Dont know where 50kg thing comes from :?

- JJ.

D-Scythe · March 17, 2005

Yeah, surface area too. In any case, just boot up Minizap and take a look. I'm not in the same level that you are or SK, so I'll defer judgment and stuff to you guys.

BTW, I'm Canadian, not American ;)

Hey JJ, what are your thoughts on the matter? I don't think you've put in your 2 cents, although I understand if you don't want to touch this topic with a 10 ft pole.

wsoul2k · March 17, 2005

And *both* can't be true. In terms of physical performance, the R-77 probably has greater range and greater end-game agility, but the AIM-120 should have greater end-game *energy* - i.e. more speed. Just look at their cross-sectional profiles. The lattice control surfaces on the R-77, while giving the missile outstanding agility, *must* produce more drag than the AIM-120, whose profile is like a bullet in comparison.

Just one note i have read (cant remember where) about the lattice control surfaces on the R-77, and it only produce drag when teh R-77 is turning...if not ot have a very low drag

GGTharos · March 17, 2005

Hi GGTharos,

Just a quick note on the weight thing - the weight difference between the AIM-120 and R-77 is not 50kg.

The R-77 weighs 175 kg and I believe the AIM-120 weighs 150kg....so that would be a difference of 25kg.

Dont know where 50kg thing comes from :?

- JJ.

Sorry, it's my glasses. I'm half-blind ;)

I stand corrected.

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