Returning after a break and now the Hind is impossible to keep stable, how to trim?

[GregP]

Long-time DCS player here, but have taken several long breaks the past few years.  I got the Hind when it came out, enjoyed it and learned its quirks, and could reliably trim it and keep it under control.  But coming back to it now, it's an entirely different beast and I can't even remotely get the trim system figured out - did it radically change sometime in the past year or so?

To start with, whether I use Instant Trim, or Central Position Trimmer, doesn't seem to have any real effect on below results, nor does turning off the AP channels, nor does pressing the trimmer once or repeatedly.  Note I have 'Force Feedback Stick' disabled, I've verified that my joystick axes work just fine outside DCS (and in other modules), and I don't have any axes double assigned in my controls setup.

With the controls indicator up, I see the following in the Instant Action mission Caucasus - Takeoff: when I spawn in, the cyclic (diamond on indicator) is already trimmed back and to the rear.  This makes for a stable hover and takeoff as I apply collective, but this is my first point of confusion: why does it not start with the diamond centered? I'm sure it used to be that way, and you had to manually pull the cyclic back and to the right to not drift when taking off.  Even if I try to reset the trim the diamond will never move back to the center. Anyway, I lift off and have no problem transitioning into forward flight.  The trouble comes when I want to change direction or pitch with the cyclic: if I, for example, move it to the right, I see the in-game cyclic, as well as the diamond on the indicator, quickly move right and then return to near center - as if, behind the scenes, it's using force trim to recenter the in-game cyclic - but I haven't moved the cyclic from the banked right position.  If I then hit the trimmer and return the cyclic to center, intending to stabilize the Hind in the right bank I've established, as soon as I let go of the right bank, the Hind returns to an unbanked attitude (or near it).  It's like it's refusing to accept my trimmer inputs.

Similarly, if I'm flying along and see that I'm gaining altitude but wish to remain level, I push the cyclic forward, zero out the vertical speed, hit trimmer, return to center, and the Hind immediately pitches up and begins gaining altitude again.  It's almost as if there's some other cyclic input that is fighting/counteracting my own, cancelling out any trimming that I try to do and making the Hind completely uncontrollable.

The only thing I can do that does seem to work is to use the trim hat to establish the attitude I'm seeking, rather than rely on trimmer (force trim) usage.  Am I missing something obvious here?  This feels very different from what I remember from flying the Hind a few years ago and it now feels like the trimmer does more to destabilize the Hind rather than help keep a desired attitude.

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by GregP

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, GregP said:

Long-time DCS player here, but have taken several long breaks the past few years.  I got the Hind when it came out, enjoyed it and learned its quirks, and could reliably trim it and keep it under control.  But coming back to it now, it's an entirely different beast and I can't even remotely get the trim system figured out - did it radically change sometime in the past year or so?

To start with, whether I use Instant Trim, or Central Position Trimmer, doesn't seem to have any real effect on below results, nor does turning off the AP channels, nor does pressing the trimmer once or repeatedly.  Note I have 'Force Feedback Stick' disabled, I've verified that my joystick axes work just fine outside DCS (and in other modules), and I don't have any axes double assigned in my controls setup.

With the controls indicator up, I see the following in the Instant Action mission Caucasus - Takeoff: when I spawn in, the cyclic (diamond on indicator) is already trimmed back and to the rear.  This makes for a stable hover and takeoff as I apply collective, but this is my first point of confusion: why does it not start with the diamond centered? I'm sure it used to be that way, and you had to manually pull the cyclic back and to the right to not drift when taking off.  Even if I try to reset the trim the diamond will never move back to the center. Anyway, I lift off and have no problem transitioning into forward flight.  The trouble comes when I want to change direction or pitch with the cyclic: if I, for example, move it to the right, I see the in-game cyclic, as well as the diamond on the indicator, quickly move right and then return to near center - as if, behind the scenes, it's using force trim to recenter the in-game cyclic - but I haven't moved the cyclic from the banked right position.  If I then hit the trimmer and return the cyclic to center, intending to stabilize the Hind in the right bank I've established, as soon as I let go of the right bank, the Hind returns to an unbanked attitude (or near it).  It's like it's refusing to accept my trimmer inputs.

Similarly, if I'm flying along and see that I'm gaining altitude but wish to remain level, I push the cyclic forward, zero out the vertical speed, hit trimmer, return to center, and the Hind immediately pitches up and begins gaining altitude again.  It's almost as if there's some other cyclic input that is fighting/counteracting my own, cancelling out any trimming that I try to do and making the Hind completely uncontrollable.

The only thing I can do that does seem to work is to use the trim hat to establish the attitude I'm seeking, rather than rely on trimmer (force trim) usage.  Am I missing something obvious here?  This feels very different from what I remember from flying the Hind a few years ago and it now feels like the trimmer does more to destabilize the Hind rather than help keep a desired attitude.

 

 

I use FFB, so when it comes to central position trimmer and control diamond, I don’t have those

You seem to use AP correctly, like Black Shark you set the attitude hold with them button. What can happen is if you trim level and nose down, pitch AP is now giving pitch up. You fight it with forward cyclic, trim, and now since AP attitude hold is reset to current pitch you no longer need forward cyclic to fight the AP. But it seems like your problem might be wider ranging then that 

Hat trim will move stick but not effect the attitude holds 

I’m sure you already checked for any double binds? 

[GregP]

Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense to me, but strangely I see nearly the same behavior even with the AP channels off. And yes I have checked for double binds and there aren't any.

What about the movement of the in-game cyclic in the cockpit, do you see the same thing that I do? If you bank to the side, the cyclic moves in the same direction but then returns to center, as if the sim is automatically applying force trim regardless of what I'm doing? 

 

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, GregP said:

Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense to me, but strangely I see nearly the same behavior even with the AP channels off. And yes I have checked for double binds and there aren't any.

What about the movement of the in-game cyclic in the cockpit, do you see the same thing that I do? If you bank to the side, the cyclic moves in the same direction but then returns to center, as if the sim is automatically applying force trim regardless of what I'm doing? 

 

Is your “control helper” in settings on? 

[GregP]

23 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

Is your “control helper” in settings on? 

 Ugh.....yes, yes I did! I definitely never had that setting on in the past so a reinstall must have re-enabled it without me noticing it.  I just turned it off and tried again and now I can finally fly the thing without it fighting me at every turn. Thank you for pointing out the obvious! Entirely my fault.