Resolution confilctions? (Pimax 8k)

[Gunslinger52]

Hi all,

brand new to Pimax, have one of their original 8k versions.

Running PimaxXR/OpenXR to avoid Steam.

Since installing, I've never had a good resolution, it always appears to be very low res, compared to my HP Reverb G2.

Intially, DCS seemed to take on this resolution (but it always seemed very low res in game) so I'm not sure if it did at all.  

Since discovering the Upscaling part of OpenXR Toolkit, and playing with that, and with the 'Render Quality' slider in the Pimax software, I've never actually had the resolution in DCS display (in options) anything like the resolution screen grab above, alway much lower.

To cut a long story short, I think I can see where to adjust my headsets resolution, using its upscaling, but DCS seems stuck on a low res.  My G2 didn't have res like this thing should be delivering, but DCS doesn't seem to want to take it.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

'52

[Phantom711]

The resolution setting that you select there in your pic won‘t do anything for you in VR. It is only the res for 2D. 
You have to select your resolution for your headset in your headsets software. And usually you would want to supersample at least a bit for best quality.

Alternatively you could increase the PD value in the DCS VR options or increase the res in the OXR toolkit. But I would recommend to start with your native headset‘s software.

EDIT: And I recommend to start from scratch without any upscaling selected.

Edited July 28, 2024 by Phantom711

[Gunslinger52]

18 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

The resolution setting that you select there in your pic won‘t do anything for you in VR. It is only the res for 2D. 
You have to select your resolution for your headset in your headsets software. And usually you would want to supersample at leas a bit for best quality.

Alternatively you could increase the PD value in the DCS VR options or increase the res in the OXR toolkit. But I would recommend to start with your native headset‘s software.

EDIT: And I recommend to start from scratch without any upscaling selected.

 

Now that would explain a lot!

Thanks very much @Phantom711, I'll give that a shot.  I believe everything is set to 1 currently.  One thing I'd say is that my picture is now starting to look more like anti-aliasing/blurry  issues.  So if you have any ideas about those, that'd be much appreciated.

Thanks again.

'52

[Phantom711]

As I said, start from scratch. Reset upscaling. Only use it if you can‘t achive good quality with the regular settings. 
Upscaling will take a lower resolution and artificially try to increase it to a desired res. But it will never look as good as a „real“ high resolution/supersampling. Hence it might cause the blurriness.

Also try without DLAA and/or DLSS first.

[WipeUout]

15 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

Since discovering the Upscaling part of OpenXR Toolkit, and playing with that, and with the 'Render Quality' slider in the Pimax software, I've never actually had the resolution in DCS display (in options) anything like the resolution screen grab above, alway much lower.

To cut a long story short, I think I can see where to adjust my headsets resolution, using its upscaling, but DCS seems stuck on a low res.  My G2 didn't have res like this thing should be delivering, but DCS doesn't seem to want to take it.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

'52

If you have the 8k+ or the very first 8k, then you will need to ease on supersampling.  Just to manage expectation, you will never get the same clarity as a G2 in the sweet spot.  You are basically giving up some resolution for the widest FOV.  You also need to understand that your GPU might not have the hosepower to deliver the best that the 8k can offer.

First start by applying render quality "custom" with slider at 1.0 in Pimax play / device setting / Games / Render quality.  Ensure OXRTK resolution is also at default and pixel density in DCS at 1.0.

Next ensure your HMD refresh rate is a low as can be tolerated. If I remember well, I think you may have something like 72Hz or 90Hz.  The lower will be easier to sustain.  The aim is to ensure you can keep your FPS at the refresh rate.  Use the nomal FOV which is about 140 degrees horizontal and quite good.  If you try to use wide FOV, it will be very demanding.

Next install Quadviews and follow instruction to create your config file to have you focus view supersampled at 1.2 and the outside of focus at 0.4.  Next try to set your focus area of 25% x 35%, it may seems very small but with the wide FOV, it will cover a lot nevertheless.  You can then start increasing the focus view over 1.2 and see if you can sustain it.  If you want to use sharperning, use CAS in OXRTK, it is the best performance sharpen tool period.  You can also use DLSS/DLAA to gain a few more FPS and reduce shimmering at the same time.

There are several other approaches but from my experience, this is what gave me the best performance.  Finaly, what is a good experience in VR is different from one person to another, try to experiment...

[Gunslinger52]

10 hours ago, WipeUout said:

If you have the 8k+ or the very first 8k, then you will need to ease on supersampling.  Just to manage expectation, you will never get the same clarity as a G2 in the sweet spot.  You are basically giving up some resolution for the widest FOV.  You also need to understand that your GPU might not have the hosepower to deliver the best that the 8k can offer.

First start by applying render quality "custom" with slider at 1.0 in Pimax play / device setting / Games / Render quality.  Ensure OXRTK resolution is also at default and pixel density in DCS at 1.0.

Next ensure your HMD refresh rate is a low as can be tolerated. If I remember well, I think you may have something like 72Hz or 90Hz.  The lower will be easier to sustain.  The aim is to ensure you can keep your FPS at the refresh rate.  Use the nomal FOV which is about 140 degrees horizontal and quite good.  If you try to use wide FOV, it will be very demanding.

Next install Quadviews and follow instruction to create your config file to have you focus view supersampled at 1.2 and the outside of focus at 0.4.  Next try to set your focus area of 25% x 35%, it may seems very small but with the wide FOV, it will cover a lot nevertheless.  You can then start increasing the focus view over 1.2 and see if you can sustain it.  If you want to use sharperning, use CAS in OXRTK, it is the best performance sharpen tool period.  You can also use DLSS/DLAA to gain a few more FPS and reduce shimmering at the same time.

There are several other approaches but from my experience, this is what gave me the best performance.  Finaly, what is a good experience in VR is different from one person to another, try to experiment...

Geez WipeUout,

I very much appreciate the time you have taken, to make such a useful reply.  I will go through the steps you have outlined, and report back.  It will take me a couple of weeks, as right now am flat out.  Thanks for the remark about the G2 clarity, great to know not to waste time aiming for something I can't achieve.  I'm very encouraged now, to know there are things I can do!  (Pretty sure I have the very first 8k)

Thanks again.

'52

Edited July 29, 2024 by Gunslinger52

[Gunslinger52]

On 7/29/2024 at 6:44 AM, WipeUout said:

If you have the 8k+ or the very first 8k, then you will need to ease on supersampling.  Just to manage expectation, you will never get the same clarity as a G2 in the sweet spot.  You are basically giving up some resolution for the widest FOV.  You also need to understand that your GPU might not have the hosepower to deliver the best that the 8k can offer.

First start by applying render quality "custom" with slider at 1.0 in Pimax play / device setting / Games / Render quality.  Ensure OXRTK resolution is also at default and pixel density in DCS at 1.0.

Next ensure your HMD refresh rate is a low as can be tolerated. If I remember well, I think you may have something like 72Hz or 90Hz.  The lower will be easier to sustain.  The aim is to ensure you can keep your FPS at the refresh rate.  Use the nomal FOV which is about 140 degrees horizontal and quite good.  If you try to use wide FOV, it will be very demanding.

Next install Quadviews and follow instruction to create your config file to have you focus view supersampled at 1.2 and the outside of focus at 0.4.  Next try to set your focus area of 25% x 35%, it may seems very small but with the wide FOV, it will cover a lot nevertheless.  You can then start increasing the focus view over 1.2 and see if you can sustain it.  If you want to use sharperning, use CAS in OXRTK, it is the best performance sharpen tool period.  You can also use DLSS/DLAA to gain a few more FPS and reduce shimmering at the same time.

There are several other approaches but from my experience, this is what gave me the best performance.  Finaly, what is a good experience in VR is different from one person to another, try to experiment...

Hi WipeUout,

I have installed Quad Views, and understand that I need to edit this file, which is what you meant my 'create your config file' - right?  

The values you suggested I start with, are they to go into this file? 

When you say 'focus view supersampled at 1.2 and the outside of focus at 0.4' do you mean the 1st two values in the settings.cfg file, which for me are:

smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2
sharpen_focus_view=0.7

(I don't have eye tracking if that helps.)  Or do I need to add these 'supersampled and outside of focus' lines into the file?

Any need to play with these?

 

Thanks again.

'52

Edited July 30, 2024 by Gunslinger52

[WipeUout]

You need to create a specific section in the config file for your HMD.  I am away from my computer on a business trip now and back home only Thrusday.

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

When you say 'focus view supersampled at 1.2 and the outside of focus at 0.4' do you mean the 1st two values in the settings.cfg file, which for me are:

smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2
sharpen_focus_view=0.7

These two values are not for the focus area but transition from focus to oustide (smoothen_focus_view_edge) and using CAD sharpening (sharpen_focus_view).  I suggest leaving the transition to 0.2 and set CAD to 0 and use CAD in OXRTK instead as it is far more efficient there with identical results value for value.  Personnaly I use CAS at 100% in OXRTK. 

If you look at the example in your screeshot that starts with [Oculus] this is the section you have to create with your HMD name.  for me it is [Pimax vision 8K X].  I'm not 100% sure but I think you can have also the HMD settings in the section for "all headsets and applications", maybe give it a try.  Then you change the exact same settings that you see in the example to something like this:

 

peripheral_multiplier=0.4
focus_multiplier=1.2
horizontal_focus_section=0.25
vertical_focus_section=0.35

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

Any need to play with these?

... yes this is fine.

[Gunslinger52]

Brilliant, cheers @WipeUout.

Will try it out hopefully tonight.  Should I set the max framerate in DCS, to the refresh-rate of the Pimax?  (Currently set to the lowest of 64Hz)

When I tried last night, I had sharpening (CAS in OXRTK) set to 100%, and didn't notice any change at all.  I understand that it'll never be as good as the G2, but should the writing on the MFD's be at least readable in your opinion?  Currently I have to zoom in, to be able to read them at all.  Pretty sure I had turned off the required system settings in DCS to avoid blurriness, but will double check.  

Thanks again.

'52

Edited July 30, 2024 by Gunslinger52

[Gunslinger52]

Hi WipeUout,

found this txt file 'Quad Views Foveated.log' which had the following entries amongst others;

here is where the file I created is, so not sure what the issue is 

Just thought i'd post those just in case.  They are based on last night- before me trialling the new settings from you last post.  Will put the new settings in both fole locations, in case it really reads both.

Cheers

'52

[WipeUout]

On 7/30/2024 at 10:40 PM, Gunslinger52 said:

Will try it out hopefully tonight.  Should I set the max framerate in DCS, to the refresh-rate of the Pimax?  (Currently set to the lowest of 64Hz)

No, matching max framerate with your HMD refresh rate will introduce stutters.  I leave it at 300 in DCS.

On 7/30/2024 at 10:40 PM, Gunslinger52 said:

When I tried last night, I had sharpening (CAS in OXRTK) set to 100%, and didn't notice any change at all.  I understand that it'll never be as good as the G2, but should the writing on the MFD's be at least readable in your opinion? 

MFD readability is very subjective.  With my Pimax 8KX and a focus area at 1.5 supersampling, I do not need to use any zoom but if I use DLSS/DLAA then I need to use the zoom sometimes.  CAS sharpening should help, do you see a difference in the ouside view?  Maybe not much in the cockpit but the outside view should be definitely better.

 

17 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

not sure what the issue is 

Just thought i'd post those just in case.  They are based on last night- before me trialling the new settings from you last post.  Will put the new settings in both fole locations, in case it really reads both.

Not sure either, but your config file should look like this:

# These settings are for all headsets and applications
smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2
sharpen_focus_view=0.7
turbo_mode=1

[Pimax 8K]
# These settings are specific to Pimax 8K.
peripheral_multiplier=0.4
focus_multiplier=1.2
horizontal_focus_section=0.25
vertical_focus_section=0.35

 

 

[Gunslinger52]

2 hours ago, WipeUout said:

No, matching max framerate with your HMD refresh rate will introduce stutters.  I leave it at 300 in DCS.

MFD readability is very subjective.  With my Pimax 8KX and a focus area at 1.5 supersampling, I do not need to use any zoom but if I use DLSS/DLAA then I need to use the zoom sometimes.  CAS sharpening should help, do you see a difference in the ouside view?  Maybe not much in the cockpit but the outside view should be definitely better.

 

Not sure either, but your config file should look like this:

# These settings are for all headsets and applications
smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2
sharpen_focus_view=0.7
turbo_mode=1

[Pimax 8K]
# These settings are specific to Pimax 8K.
peripheral_multiplier=0.4
focus_multiplier=1.2
horizontal_focus_section=0.25
vertical_focus_section=0.35

 

 

Hi again,

thanks- will make the max FPS 300 also.  I discovered that my config file was settings.cfg.txt  So fixed that, and now we are away.  I was confused between 'fixed' and 'focused' so will now be able to sort that tonight and try again.  

I will turn off DLSS/DLAA after that, to see if it helps further.  Yes I believe the outside is 'looking better' now, but inside still unreadable.  I wonder if IPD is playing a part.  If I face directly at the CMWS panel (Flares/Chaff etc) in the Apache cockpit, the writing is a lot more blurred, than if I face straight ahead and move my eyes to the right to read it.  Weird. 

I had sharpen_focus_view=0.0 also through confusion, so hopefully tonight I will see a difference.

When you say supersampling, you mean the slider in the Pimax software under 'Games', right?

Have a good one.

'52

[WipeUout]

17 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

When you say supersampling, you mean the slider in the Pimax software under 'Games', right?

In general, supersampling means rendering an image at a higher resolution than what your hardware can display (also called native resolution).  If you set the focus area at 1.0 then this means you want the images to be rendered at the same resolution as your hardware or 100% resolution.  If you set the focus area at 1.2, then you are asking 120% of your hardware resolution which is superior resolution or supersampling.  If you set it below 1.0 such as 0.8 then you are undersampling the image at 80% of its native resolution.

Without going too much into details, image processing in VR is done with several passes and the images can degrade quite a bit at the end.  When you supersample, you gain back some details that were lost during processing but at the cost of giving more work to your system to output the image.  If you have a very high resolution, undesampling will reduce the burden on your system by processing less pixels but will increase your FPS but with less quality images, or less resolution.

Pimax software has a slider to alter resolution under "games" but it will apply to the whole image, it is better to leave it at 1.0.  DCS pixel density is another way to supersample/undersample also but leave it at 1.0 there as well.  It is better to use Quadviews to alter resolution since you will have more felxibility as the image is divided in two area than can have different resolution.

[Gunslinger52]

6 hours ago, WipeUout said:

In general, supersampling means rendering an image at a higher resolution than what your hardware can display (also called native resolution).  If you set the focus area at 1.0 then this means you want the images to be rendered at the same resolution as your hardware or 100% resolution.  If you set the focus area at 1.2, then you are asking 120% of your hardware resolution which is superior resolution or supersampling.  If you set it below 1.0 such as 0.8 then you are undersampling the image at 80% of its native resolution.

Without going too much into details, image processing in VR is done with several passes and the images can degrade quite a bit at the end.  When you supersample, you gain back some details that were lost during processing but at the cost of giving more work to your system to output the image.  If you have a very high resolution, undesampling will reduce the burden on your system by processing less pixels but will increase your FPS but with less quality images, or less resolution.

Pimax software has a slider to alter resolution under "games" but it will apply to the whole image, it is better to leave it at 1.0.  DCS pixel density is another way to supersample/undersample also but leave it at 1.0 there as well.  It is better to use Quadviews to alter resolution since you will have more felxibility as the image is divided in two area than can have different resolution.

Okay, slowly getting there.  Thanks for your patience!

From your previous post, which one of these is the 'focus area' you mention above?  

These settings are for all headsets and applications
smoothen_focus_view_edges=0.2
sharpen_focus_view=0.7
turbo_mode=1

[Pimax 8K]
# These settings are specific to Pimax 8K.
peripheral_multiplier=0.4
focus_multiplier=1.2
horizontal_focus_section=0.25
vertical_focus_section=0.35

 

Thanks again.

'52

[WipeUout]

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

focus_multiplier=1.2

This is the resolution for the focus area, at 1.2 you are supersampling it at 120% of its native resolution

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

peripheral_multiplier=0.4

This is the resolution outside the focus area, at .4 you are undersampling it at 40% of its native resolution

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

horizontal_focus_section=0.25 vertical_focus_section=0.35

These are the focus area dimentions as a % of the total screen, horizontal 25% and vertical 35%.

if you open your log file within the quadviews appdata folder after running it at least once, you will see the total original pixel count and the resulting pixel count from Quadviews and the estimated ''savings'' you get.   The outcome is a significant reduction in image processing and increased FPS.

Edited August 2, 2024 by WipeUout
Typo

[Gunslinger52]

On 8/2/2024 at 10:43 PM, WipeUout said:

This is the resolution for the focus area, at 1.2 you are supersampling it at 120% of its native resolution

This is the resolution outside the focus area, at .4 you are undersampling it at 40% of its native resolution

These are the focus area dimentions as a % of the total screen, horizontal 25% and vertical 35%.

if you open your log file within the quadviews appdata folder after running it at least once, you will see the total original pixel count and the resulting pixel count from Quadviews and the estimated ''savings'' you get.   The outcome is a significant reduction in image processing and increased FPS.

 

Thanks again.  I might have come to the end of this road.   

After finally getting your settings correct,  I do now see a shaper image.   It is still short of easily readable however.   CAS Sharpening is at 100%, DLSS  and DLAA are off.  Getting good FPS for me using Quad Views.   

I have made sure the other DCS settings that can cause blurriness are off. 

Unless you have any other things I can try?

Really appreciate all your help. 

'52

[WipeUout]

9 hours ago, Gunslinger52 said:

Unless you have any other things I can try?

Unfortunately, the original 8K was limited in quality because of the panels and upscaling.  If my memory is good, I think they were taking a 2.5k image and upscaling it to 4k which caused lot of loss.  The panels were not optimized for VR with too much spacing between pixels.  Other issue was that even the 4k panels were not used at 100% but someting like 80% which also does not help.  The second iteration of the 8k, the 8k+ was a bit better but still upscaling from a 2.5k image.  It is only with the 8kX that the image was native 4k per panel but with a huge cost in processing power.  I have a 4090 and it is still not possible to run the 8kX at full potential.

Even if you upgrade your GPU, it will not improve much the quality of the image.  You might get a more smooth experience with more eye candy like high textures and details but the image will remain lower resolution and require you to use VR zoom to see panel instruments well.  But you will still get this wide FOV which provide a better sense of imersion in the 3D world compare to binocular type FOV in the majority of HMD out there.

[Gunslinger52]

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

Unfortunately, the original 8K was limited in quality because of the panels and upscaling.  If my memory is good, I think they were taking a 2.5k image and upscaling it to 4k which caused lot of loss.  The panels were not optimized for VR with too much spacing between pixels.  Other issue was that even the 4k panels were not used at 100% but someting like 80% which also does not help.  The second iteration of the 8k, the 8k+ was a bit better but still upscaling from a 2.5k image.  It is only with the 8kX that the image was native 4k per panel but with a huge cost in processing power.  I have a 4090 and it is still not possible to run the 8kX at full potential.

Even if you upgrade your GPU, it will not improve much the quality of the image.  You might get a more smooth experience with more eye candy like high textures and details but the image will remain lower resolution and require you to use VR zoom to see panel instruments well.  But you will still get this wide FOV which provide a better sense of imersion in the 3D world compare to binocular type FOV in the majority of HMD out there.

Hi WipeUout,

thanks very much for all your help.  I've now got the bigger text readable (like button names around the MFD's) and even some of the words on them.  So it's a lot more playable now, thanks to your efforts!

In any case, being on Win 11, my G2 will stop working eventually, so have decided to stick with the Pimax, and just get used to it.  The FOV really is great.  Also the extra frames I get with Quad Views makes the flying smoother too.  A lot less stutters than I was used to.

Will keep saving my penny's, till I can afford a Crystal or similar.  Then a 5090?? to run it   ..and a new PSU to power that etc. etc...

Have a good one.

'52