FCR radome emission rumors

[TheGhostOfDefi]

I Checked and since the last update (30th October ´24) the FCR sends its signal out where it actually is. Before it was scaning from the position of the TADS. 

So now you can utilize the Apache Radar in a Hull-Down position.

[Raptor9]

The FCR was never scanning from the TADS. This rumor has been addressed and debunked multiple times, even before the update this week.

[Stewart]

You have always had to show your nose to get the FCR to scan correctly. Tried multiple times since the FCR came out to scan with just the radar dome exposed and it has never worked until now. 

[Raptor9]

As explained multiple times elsewhere, there was a bug in the elevation control logic that was fixed over the summer. The FCR was never transmitting from anywhere but the radome.

The problem is that when we have explained the issue in the past, a few select community members have deliberately promulgated false narratives, for whatever reason. And after we explained what the actual issue was, many choose not to believe us. Which is rather amusing, but it is still wrong and not based in facts.

Please do not turn this into a "he said/she said on Hoggit" debate when ED staff, which know what actually is happening in the code, have already clarified, yet again, what the issue was. Especially since it was resolved months ago anyway.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

@Raptor9 Well im sorry for the misunderstanding of my side. Seems that the explanation else where went passed by me. 
 

For the simple user it showed similar symptoms as if the radar would’ve been misplaced. 

[key_stroked]

This is related to this discussion:
 

That forum link happens to show a video taken by an ED beta tester detailing exactly what I just tested in the ME with an SA-15 on the Nevada map.

There was an original claim by players that the FCR radar beams weren't originating from the FCR dome on top of the rotor mast, but instead coming from the nose of the aircraft where the TADS is. Raptor from ED claimed this was false.

So I think Raptor is actually correct, but there is a caveat that he didn't mention which explains the behavior shown in the video from the link and the screenshot above.

The video and screenshot collage clearly shows that if TADS can't see a target, the FCR can't see it. Specifically, if TADS can't get a contrast lock, then the FCR has nothing to paint as a target. My theory is that this is because of the LINK feature.

LINK allows the TADS to snap to a target painted with the FCR. While the radar beams are most likely coming from the FCR dome, I believe there is game logic in the programming code that tells the FCR to not paint a target if the TADS can't achieve a contrast lock. One possible reason would be to avoid a multitude of CTDs and program freezes while the game tries to find the related target to snap the TADS to but can't.

Whatever the reason, the fact is if TADS can't see it, your FCR can't either, which completely negates the advantage of putting an FCR at the very top of the aircraft and peeking it over a hill to avoid exposing your entire helicopter.

Raptor originally gave this explanation for why this appears to be the case, and he said some calculations were corrected for a future patch, but as of patch 2.9.9.2474 the FCR still can't be used as it was originally designed:
 

Quote

The mathematical calculations that determine when a target is visible to the radome need corrections (and have been corrected internally for a future patch). These calculations are based on the aircraft height over terrain and the antenna elevation setting. The emissions are not coming from the nose, but it is a happy coincidence that the incorrect calculations are manifesting to give the appearance of this.

So my question is...when will this finally be fixed ED? I shouldn't have to expose my entire Apache aircraft body to get a lock with the FCR.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, key_stroked said:

So my question is...when will this finally be fixed ED? I shouldn't have to expose my entire Apache aircraft body to get a lock with the FCR.

First of all, the bug that produced the appearance of the FCR not emitting from the radome has nothing to do with the TADS, with LINK, or anything else than what I specified. The information I provided in other threads regarding this issue came from the ED devs and my own testing using internal debug tools, not the Hoggit rumor mill. Second, the actual issue that was causing this effect was resolved months ago, so if there are still some individuals in the social media channels making these claims, I would wonder if they have even played DCS: AH-64D in several months, or if they are simply repeating things that someone else said to drive a narrative for whatever reason.

The image below was just taken from the same DCS version that anyone in the DCS community can play and try out for themselves. Clearly the FCR can see the target while the TADS is still obscured by the ridgeline ahead. And as you can see, the FCR is performing a continuous scan to show that the target was just detected at the current altitude.

To provide some context, if the FCR does not see enough of the target, it may not be able to determine whether it is a target of military interest or simply ground clutter, even if it does register the radar reflection from the vehicle. Case in point, in the images below (again, from the same DCS build that everyone else can play) you can see that the raw radar information displays a radar target out there as a bright white reflection, but it is only partially visible to the FCR. The TADS doesn't need to see the whole target to establish an image auto-track on it, but the FCR does not have enough information to determine what it is, so it rejects it as ground clutter. As opposed to a tracked target in the foreground of which it does see enough to classify.

Finally, the aircraft altitude is increased until the FCR can gather enough radar information to determine what the target is.

As you can see, there is no issue with how the FCR is behaving, there hasn't been for months, despite what people keep claiming. However, one must keep in mind some practical limitations of radar as a sensor. Just as a radar cannot determine whether a tank is operational or destroyed by a missile, the radar cannot classify a vehicle if it only sees a portion of the vehicle.

Threads merged.

[key_stroked]

 

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

First of all, the bug that produced the appearance of the FCR not emitting from the radome has nothing to do with the TADS, with LINK, or anything else than what I specified. The information I provided in other threads regarding this issue came from the ED devs and my own testing using internal debug tools, not the Hoggit rumor mill. Second, the actual issue that was causing this effect was resolved months ago, so if there are still some individuals in the social media channels making these claims, I would wonder if they have even played DCS: AH-64D in several months, or if they are simply repeating things that someone else said to drive a narrative for whatever reason.

The image below was just taken from the same DCS version that anyone in the DCS community can play and try out for themselves. Clearly the FCR can see the target while the TADS is still obscured by the ridgeline ahead. And as you can see, the FCR is performing a continuous scan to show that the target was just detected at the current altitude.

To provide some context, if the FCR does not see enough of the target, it may not be able to determine whether it is a target of military interest or simply ground clutter, even if it does register the radar reflection from the vehicle. Case in point, in the images below (again, from the same DCS build that everyone else can play) you can see that the raw radar information displays a radar target out there as a bright white reflection, but it is only partially visible to the FCR. The TADS doesn't need to see the whole target to establish an image auto-track on it, but the FCR does not have enough information to determine what it is, so it rejects it as ground clutter. As opposed to a tracked target in the foreground of which it does see enough to classify.

Finally, the aircraft altitude is increased until the FCR can gather enough radar information to determine what the target is.

As you can see, there is no issue with how the FCR is behaving, there hasn't been for months, despite what people keep claiming. However, one must keep in mind some practical limitations of radar as a sensor. Just as a radar cannot determine whether a tank is operational or destroyed by a missile, the radar cannot classify a vehicle if it only sees a portion of the vehicle.

Threads merged.

I retested and you are 100% correct. My earlier test was flawed because the target was right behind the ridge line obstructing it instead of my aircraft being right up against a ridge line. Thanks for clearing it up!

 

What's interesting is that the AI search radar can go through buildings but the tracking radar can't.

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by key_stroked

[Raptor9]

53 minutes ago, key_stroked said:

What's interesting is that the AI search radar can go through buildings but the tracking radar can't.

If you are referring to the fact you are still getting an RWR indication of the radar while hovering in that picture, that is not necessarily incorrect. Radio emissions can propagate in all sorts of ways through the atmosphere and even the ground, depending on the waveform, they aren't like laser beams (Even though laser beams can be affected by the atmosphere and the environment as well).

The difference being is that an RWR simply needs to detect the emissions. A radar needs to be able to analyze and process the radio waves that are reflecting back at them, and do it in such a way that it can discriminate a target amongst the noise of the environment.

[ShuRugal]

On 11/11/2024 at 10:25 PM, Raptor9 said:

If you are referring to the fact you are still getting an RWR indication of the radar while hovering in that picture, that is not necessarily incorrect. Radio emissions can propagate in all sorts of ways through the atmosphere and even the ground, depending on the waveform, they aren't like laser beams (Even though laser beams can be affected by the atmosphere and the environment as well).

The difference being is that an RWR simply needs to detect the emissions. A radar needs to be able to analyze and process the radio waves that are reflecting back at them, and do it in such a way that it can discriminate a target amongst the noise of the environment.

mmmm, multipath propagation.  so much fun.  especially when you're trying to explain to 11-bang-bangs why their DF gear isn't giving them the results they wanted...

[336_TheAngryGamer]

Yep, Basically, if George couldn't see it, the radar couldn't either. I had tried popping up slowly with targets in an open field 4 km away. George would see the targets long before the radar in every try. To be honest, since I never read about it being fixed in a change log, I just gave up using the radar in that fashion. It is nice to know it was fixed. Maybe I missed the change log.