R-60M on Su-25s in M12

[Dragon1-1]

Just a little anachronism I noticed. The R-60M was introduced in 1982, which means it shouldn't exist at the campaign's timeframe, yet the Su-25s have it. It probably makes them a little too good at shooting down fighters. 

Also, the Phantoms seem to be SAM magnets in that mission. I think they either fly too high or are getting too far east.

[SorelRo]

Well, Su-25 was introduced in 1981. the first 11 airplanes arrived in May 1981, but this is not real life historical events. Let's say that both the missile and the plane were rushed into service. 

[Dragon1-1]

Actually, the first Su-25 squadron was formed February 1981, and they've been in production for three years before that. They were also being produced in Georgia, so seeing them two years early wasn't too bad. The R-60M was a nasty surprise, though, especially since there was no warning in the briefing to expect Soviet attackers to suddenly have all-aspect heaters (would have made more sense on fighters, though in '79 it definitely would have warranted a briefing mention either way).

Edited April 22 by Dragon1-1

[Dragon1-1]

OK, what's the reason for them having the R-60M anyway? Are you trying to make the mission pointlessly frustrating? Because if so, you've succeeded. Between the Russian forces in the area (who have an Igla, just in case you blunder into them), the big SAMs disrupting the AI, and the Su-25s being way too good at air to air, this is yet another mission that plays really bad. It seems to be down to luck and DCS AI.

Seriously, I suggest you go through the campaign with someone who hasn't played it before. Several of those missions are dice rolls with either DCS AI or with flares. It's beyond changes to DCS messing up the "balance", it needs serious QC, and from someone other than you, who didn't already fly all the missions a million times when making them.

[SorelRo]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

OK, what's the reason for them having the R-60M anyway? Are you trying to make the mission pointlessly frustrating? Because if so, you've succeeded. Between the Russian forces in the area (who have an Igla, just in case you blunder into them), the big SAMs disrupting the AI, and the Su-25s being way too good at air to air, this is yet another mission that plays really bad. It seems to be down to luck and DCS AI.

Seriously, I suggest you go through the campaign with someone who hasn't played it before. Several of those missions are dice rolls with either DCS AI or with flares. It's beyond changes to DCS messing up the "balance", it needs serious QC, and from someone other than you, who didn't already fly all the missions a million times when making them.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll do that. I'm struggling to understand where the problems are. Is the R-60M? Or the Igla? Or is it the AI? Or what other QC may be needed? 

[Dragon1-1]

All of those things contribute. The problem is sheer difficulty and randomness of the mission. The R-60M turns the Su-25 into something that can put up a fight against the F-5 down low, and they outnumber your flight two to one. The Igla bushwacks you and your wingmen when you least expect it, and it's hard to avoid overflying that particular patch of ground when trying to stay on top in the dogfight. It's also smack-dab in the middle of the area when the merge happens, and it's hard to see that there's anything in that area until they start shooting. AI Phantoms also get mixed in with the MiGs too close to the big SAMs, which proceed to take potshots at them, making their fight with MiGs take a long time, sometimes allowing the MiGs to win.

Either of those elements individually would have made the outwardly simple task at the heart of the mission difficult (even with the old R-60 the Su-25 is no easy target), but would not have been too bad on its own. Together, they make it extremely frustrating and luck-based. If you're lucky, the AI can clean the area almost on its own. If you're not, Su-25s will kill your wingmen and mob you, or one of them will drag you over the Igla. As it's impossible to control who the AIs will attack, it more often than not devolves into a furball, and the R-60M makes extending from a Su-25 armed with them a risky proposition.

QC should focus on the general playability of the missions. Ideally, the player would get in the briefing all the information needed to accomplish the mission, it should require neither trial and error nor luck, just good tactics. Also, a good idea would be to have SAM FCRs shut down, and only waking up when the player gets close. That would preserve the SAM threat and their area denial role, while not interfering with AI that might wander into its WEZ. In this mission in particular, the Phantoms come in very fast, making the SAMs think they have a shot, which is thrashed the moment the AI starts maneuvering and loses speed, but this disrupts their formation. It would also be realistic, an FCR wouldn't be turned without the EWR tracking anything that could be engaged.

[SorelRo]

Thanks for the detailed answer, I see where the struggles are now. I'll see what I can do and make it a bit more manageable while still presenting a challenge. 

 

Thanks once again for this.