Questions about Bombing Modes

[SloppyDog]

Hello all! In the learning curve of properly using the F-4 I am at the stage of exploring the various bombing modes. 

I know it is a 60's and 70's aircraft with its quirks and limitations and that's why I have some questions regarding the bombing modes. Maybe it is a skill issue thing or some modes are not fully developed yet.

So, here it goes:

1)  Dive Toss and Target Find: Dive Toss works perfectly, only needing lots of training to get it right. Even CBUs 1 and 2 can be used with satisfactory results. Target Find works fine as well, however, using the Pave Spike by oneself can be challenging. It really shows how this type of bombing in the F-4 is a two person job.

2) Offset: an interesting way of using the INS and the radar to find the target. Visual IP mode can be more precise than Radar IP mode. This last one is very imprecise, if you don't mark the exactly right spot in the radar the firing solution will be off, way off, sometimes 1.5 nm off target. It is very hard to try to find your smudge among other smudges in the radar while trying to maintain the right speed. 

Question #1: Is speed a prime requirement under this mode? Or the INS system knows where you are independently of the time you take to get to the target?

Question #2: The bearing inserted in the bombing computer (BC) is the magnetic heading or the true heading?

Bug (maybe); When in Visual IP mode, once pressing the Freeze buttons, the Freeze light on the button does not come on. 

3) Level Release: Lots of fun. A kind of "welcome back to WWII" mode. Just calculate time of flight using BC in Direct mode, subtract that from time to target and here you go. Although it needs a very good heading, altitude and speed control.

4) 4.1) Laydown modes: Laydown works fine, although in my experience going a little bit higher AGL helps to see the target better. 

Question #3: Is speed a prime requirement for 'L' mode as well? I saw in other post  that it is not critical, since the INS will know where you are and where to release the bombs. 

4.2) Dive Laydown: I'm having great difficulty using this mode. I tried to follow the procedure as laid down in the manual. But the bombs are dropped as soon as I press the pickle button. I've tried high angle, low angle, almost level... nothing changes. Don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Question #4: Is DL mode fully implemented?

5) Loft: works fine, but one must keep speed and altitude before the pull.

Toss modes I'm still studying them, don't know if they are fully implemented.

 

 

[Zabuzard]

7 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

Question #1: Is speed a prime requirement under this mode? Or the INS system knows where you are independently of the time you take to get to the target?

Offset mode utilitizes the INS data, so your speed and altitude is not of a concern as long as it matches the speed and altitude you used when computing the drag coefficient right at the moment of release.

But yeah, this mode is more meant for attacking perhaps a factory facility or something - and ofc with multiple other F-4 in trail  

7 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

Question #3: Is speed a prime requirement for 'L' mode as well? I saw in other post  that it is not critical, since the INS will know where you are and where to release the bombs. 

Same here, also based on INS. So you just need to ensure your profile at release matches the data you used during planning or the weapons ballistics will be off.
By the way, you do not need to visually see the target as long as you have another way of determining you are right above the IP. So if its a landmark or you use your TACAN or a waypoint (ofc a bit less accurate) you can also use laydown mode without seeing the target. The technique with depressing the sight and pressing the button once it aligns with the target is very neat but optional - it is just one of many ways how you would know that you are right above the IP.

7 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

Question #4: Is DL mode fully implemented?

Should be, yes. Maybe someone else from the team can provide you some details on it.

7 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

5) Loft: works fine, but one must keep speed and altitude before the pull.

Toss modes I'm still studying them, don't know if they are fully implemented.

Yes. Essentially all bombing modes in the F4 are fully implemented. There are currently no known bugs with them. (The bombing tool has some known bugs though, but not the systems in the aircraft).

Worth noting that a lot of the loft modes are meant for nuclear delivery and hence do not need to be very precise. Since they are all timer based and not using the INS you indeed need to fly the profile accurately all the way.

[SloppyDog]

@Zabuzard 

Thank you for answer and the the tips, especially on how to use Laydown mode "blind".

Regarding Dive Laydown, it was user error. I tested it on Caucasus and on Nevada and works fine, requiring a little bit of a rollercoaster maneuver to bring the aircraft at level before bombing, but it's ok.

Regarding Toss Modes, I have to test it. I was testing LADD, I get a release at the top of the climb (see TacView file attached),  but still, I don't get any pull up cues. I'll have to test it further, setting it up manually. This particular mode is a mix of offset and loft modes and I believe that neither mode in the bombing computer can be used with to calculate the timers needed.

 As a side note, one can see that the 60/70's Cold War era was pretty crazy. On one hand you have this massive carpet bombing modes, legacy of WWII, on the other hand, the most creative loft and toss modes to deliver nuclear payloads. Crazy times. And, in the mix, you have the F-4E, which truly was the F-35 of its time: lots of sensors, a advanced computer with a multitude of employment modes in a especially capable, hugely versatile airframe.

 

Tacview-LADD Test-DCS.zip.acmi

[IronMike]

Just maybe to add: offset mode was primarily used for nuclear delivery, and trained as such (iirc what our SMEs told me), in other words, it is a mode that is more of an exercise of concept than anything you should pick for normal F-4 missions. The primary mode that was used was Dive Toss. Laydown is a very good mode for facility or area of effect bombing etc. Loft, toss, like you mention yourself, are also modes rather not used for regular missions. That said, it is ofc fun to explore all of them, which is why we modelled them all, despite not really having a nuclear option in DCS.

The best thing imo about dive toss, is that it lets you do the pop up or ingress in any way you like, as long as you can roll out on the target high and far enough to go through the procedure before pickle. And I really like laydown for its simplicity, you basically set the mils you want fly level and pickle. 

[Kalasnkova74]

6 hours ago, IronMike said:

Just maybe to add: offset mode was primarily used for nuclear delivery, and trained as such (iirc what our SMEs told me), in other words, it is a mode that is more of an exercise of concept than anything you should pick for normal F-4 missions. The primary mode that was used was Dive Toss. Laydown is a very good mode for facility or area of effect bombing etc. Loft, toss, like you mention yourself, are also modes rather not used for regular missions. That said, it is ofc fun to explore all of them, which is why we modelled them all, despite not really having a nuclear option in DCS.

The best thing imo about dive toss, is that it lets you do the pop up or ingress in any way you like, as long as you can roll out on the target high and far enough to go through the procedure before pickle. And I really like laydown for its simplicity, you basically set the mils you want fly level and pickle. 

Further, when attacking /suppressing ground based air defenses, the Israelis used loft as a standoff method. Not terribly accurate, but it did well at making AAA gunners run for their bunkers during an airfield or other attack run. By the time the gunners got back to their posts, the strike was over and the Kurnass flights were egressing.