x56 HOTAS upgrade, WINWING Orion2 MAX HOTAS vs WKB Gunfighter IV Ultimate.

[DejmienoPl]

Hi guys,

I own Logitech x56 HOTAS but I'm thinking about to replace it with something better, for sure for something which is not made from plastic. 

Most important is to upgrade stick, I can live with x56 throttle if upgrade is not game changer. 

Visually, I fall in love with WKB Gunfighter IV Ultimate... but it's quite expensive. With discount I can afford it for 608 EUR with shipment. In my budget I'm able to buy only stick, and leave throttle for another month. 

In the same budget in WINWING I can buy full HOTAS Orion2 MAX or buy only stick and instead of upgrading throttle just buy rudder pedals (currently I use small stick on x56 throttle to control rudder).

Any advice? Is Gunfighter really worth the price? 

I'm flying F-14 Tomcat with plans to also learn F-4 Phantom, F-16, Mig-29 Falcon and Apache.

[MAXsenna]

@DejmienoPl

If you're going to spend that much money, and you mostly fly the F-14, plan on F-4 and helicopters. You WILL regret down the line not getting a force feedback base. Even if you have to wait a little to save up more money.

The FFB bases you can consider are the FFBeast and the VPForce Rhino, which both are made by enthusiasts and can also be done as a DIY project. There is also the Moza base, which might even fit your budget. Winwing and Virpil have plans to release FFB bases in the future. They will probably be better than the Moza, while I highly doubt they will have the flexibility and telemetry of the Rhino, and the strength of the Beast. 

Cheers! 

Edited Tuesday at 03:16 PM by MAXsenna

[DejmienoPl]

@MAXsenna thanks for reply!

Do you think if Winwing release FFB base it will be compatible with current joysticks? In such case I could just sell ORION 2 base and buy new one. 

[MAXsenna]

@MAXsenna thanks for reply!
Do you think if Winwing release FFB base it will be compatible with current joysticks? In such case I could just sell ORION 2 base and buy new one. 

Personally, I prefer using bases/grips/extensions that are compatible with Thrustmaster connectors. (Virpil, Rhino, FFBeast, Moza and more). But yes, of course you could sell parts when you upgrade.
There are converters available for matching unmatching grips.
If I were you, I would look up the different forum threads under the Input forum to seek more advice there! Also under the "For Sale" thread, you can find kits for Rhino and FFBeast, which makes the DIY process quicker and simpler.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[TheBiggerBass]

I had a logitech x56 Hotas, but returned it after a few weeks because I wasn't satisfied with the quality. Then I bought a TurtleBeach VelocityOne Flight Deck Hotas which I used for about 3 months. It's much better than the X56 but I was looking for top notch. Then I bought the VKB Gunfighter IV ultimate in March which elevated joystick performance to a completely different level. Die cast aluminum shell, nice tactile switch feeling, customizeable into every imagineable direction, good tutorial videos, fast and kind customer support ect. completes the overall picture. Yes, also the price is another level but I didn't regret it a single second. Highly recommended.

[Aapje]

@DejmienoPl

A lot of people focus blame the poor quality of their old stick on it being plastic, but high quality plastics used in the right places (with metal components where needed) are actually very good and comfortable. Real modern planes never use metal sticks. You often pay a substantial premium for getting a metal grip.

Anyway, the VKB Gladiator is the best mid-range joystick. Basically, everything below it (and even several more expensive products) have major issues.

Then above that you have the separate bases and grips, where VKB and Virpil provide very good solutions. Keep in mind that these are designed to be mounted, so that can result in extra costs for mounting kits. Winwing is cheaper as you've seen, but you pay for this with poorer quality control and especially poor service. There are a lot of horror stories about them where people basically get screwed over, and end up with no money and no functioning product. So are you willing to take that risk?

The highest end of the scale are the FFB bases, which are way nicer still and probably will fully cannibalize the top end of the previous category. You have the VPForce and FFBeast, which are top tier, but also in price. Then Moza has a solution with a good base, but mediocre software and a poor grips. I personally have the Moza AB9 with a Virpil grip, which works quite well and which was substantially cheaper than the VPForce and FFBeast. Any day now they will also come out with a cheaper AB6-base with less power.

Virpil and Winwing are going to release a FFB base as well, where Winwing has announced very attractive pricing, but their base is very tall (although less wide than the competition). This may require a full rig, and not be suitable for table mounting. We also have no idea how well their hardware and software will actually perform.

And I'm personally very happy with the VKB STECS throttle.

[TheBiggerBass]

May be I should add to my comment that an important feature for me is the Z-axis for rudder on the stick because due to health issues I am not able to use pedals. Not all sticks offer this.

[MAXsenna]

May be I should add to my comment that an important feature for me is the Z-axis for rudder on the stick because due to health issues I am not able to use pedals. Not all sticks offer this.

I feel you! Are you aware that the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle has an excellent rudder paddle, which is way better than a twist stick.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[TheBiggerBass]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb MAXsenna:

 

 

I feel you! Are you aware that the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle has an excellent rudder paddle, which is way better than a twist stick.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

 

Yes, I've seen it but have not tested it yet. Currently I use a VKB S-TECS as throttle which has an excellent quality. May be I'll check the S-TECS with a VKB Space throttle grip in the future which offers an additional Z axis. Atm I'm fine with the Z axis of the Gunfighter stick which offers an excellent quality too.

[TheBiggerBass]

I actually get along quite well with the Z axis on the Gunfighter Stick.

Edited Thursday at 10:51 AM by TheBiggerBass

[Aapje]

13 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I feel you! Are you aware that the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle has an excellent rudder paddle, which is way better than a twist stick.

The selection of controls is indeed the best thing about the TWCS and on that front it punches above its weight. Unfortunately, the actual throttle part is very poor, and the durability is also not very good.

It is commonly recommended as a decent entry-level product, but it is very much an aged product that is overpriced for what it is, IMO.

[Tasky]

I'm not a flight sim expert, but I have been using HOTASes for a few decades, and I recently upgraded from an older plasticky HOTAS, namely the CH Products setup. Here's the reasoning I used...

The Warthog was awful. Felt like cheap janky kit, disguised as quality by heavy metal casings. 

I tried VKB for about a week, on loan from a friend. The kit is very nice, though a touch small for large hands like mine. The layout is generic, rather than mimicking any particular aircraft, so works well with whatever you choose to fly, including different aircraft in other sims and any spacecraft you might happen to also enjoy (like I do). It's lightweight and easy to operate, but has very good feel to it. 

I had some Virpil kit for about four months. This initially seemed pretty good but the layout is a little weird, and the controls can be awkward for some hands. The throttle feels overly fat and the contours did not sit well in my large hand. Most of the buttons, switches and dials had a notable amount of play in them, which was unpleasant to use, and while they sounded very clicky you could not feel much in their operation. The hats were very light too, so playing with headphones on meant I often was unsure if I'd hit the right switch, mis-clicked, accidemtally pressed, or what. The software was kinda janky and not as intuitive as others. 

I ended up borrowing the WinWing HOTAS, and within a couple of days had decided this was the best for my particular needs, for several reasons:

• They both just felt right, from the moment I laid hands on. Very smooth, very accurate. Nothing is hard to reach, or keep from accidentally pressing and it just feels great in the hands. 
• I was really into the Hornet at the time and *love* the idea of MFDs that actually display live data while having working buttons all around... which I have now added (they're awesome!!)... and because the throttle labels all light up green! 
• The F16 grip and F15EX throttles combine with the Orion bases to have an absolute ton of inputs, many of which have multiple modes... so whatever you fly, from the Apache to the Millennium Falcon, this offers the most control options. 
• Buttons, switches and hats are all very firm, not too light, no play, quietly clicky but easy to feel and not so easy to mis-operate. 
• The throttle was supposed to have helicopter collectives, although WinWing discontinued this just as I ordered mine. Nevertheless, grip and throttle swapping is very easy with the options you have. 
• The software is very easy to set up, configure and tweak. Advanced features and editing of stuff is also a popular option. 
• Price was good, especially as there was a sale on, and no additional UK tax/import fees to faff about with. 

 

 

[Aapje]

On 10/11/2025 at 3:52 AM, Tasky said:

I tried VKB for about a week, on loan from a friend. The kit is very nice, though a touch small for large hands like mine.

I assume that you tried the Gladiator? That is known to be small, but that is not representative for the Gunfighter grips.

[Joch1955]

I upgraded from CH to the Winwing Orion 2 almost 3 years ago. It is a great piece of kit, solid, well built, feels nice, very precise and easy to use/ program in DCS. The F-18 throttle grip works perfectly for the F14 and of course, F18, which are my main rides.

[TheBiggerBass]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Aapje:

I assume that you tried the Gladiator? That is known to be small, but that is not representative for the Gunfighter grips.

I've got large hands (size 11 1/2) but didn't notice that the Gunfighter Ultimate might be too small.

[Tasky]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

I assume that you tried the Gladiator? That is known to be small, but that is not representative for the Gunfighter grips.

Kosmosima and MCG grips on a gunfighter base. Not set up specifically for me, though. Coming from a wide open CH Fighterstick, my hand just felt a little cramped, especially around the brake lever. YMMV. 

Very nice set, though. If I ever get rich, I'm buying a full VKB setup just to use for spaceships!!

[Aapje]

I've heard a bunch of people comment about the small size of the Kosmosima and that was also my experience. I now have a Virpil Alpha and it has a lot more girth.