F-15 TWS (campaign mission #4 CAP)

[coolts]

Guys

I have watched Ironhands excellent tutorial at Flankertraining.com but can’t get it to work for me. On campaign mission #4, (CAP), my wingman and I come up against two MIG-29’s shortly after takeoff. I follow variations of this procedure.

1. AWACS declares bogeys at 14k, 40 odd miles. Plenty of time there

2. I put targets on nose and start a 25 deg climb to gain height advantage

3. I set my radar range accordingly

4. I level off at about 25k

5. Targets in radar centreline, I set TWS mode and lock both targets up. Don’t want to give them warning and i want to hit both at once

6. As they close, I march my cursor down and adjust ANT ELEV to keep them in the sweet spot of my radar cone.

7. Once I get the ‘little star’ launch cue, I wait a few seconds to let the primary get well within my rMax, then launch the first slammer

8. Now, at this point I get the pit-bull countdown on my radar counting down till the radar becomes self guiding

9. If I launch on the secondary target, the countdown vanishes and I don’t get a second countdown

10. At this point the MIGS are launching so I turn to put them on the beam and get a better look at their missile trajectories

11. My wingman is doing a good impression of a blind man slapping a hippos buttocks right now, just seconds away from being trampled, with missiles going wild and giving the folks on the ground a good but expensive fireworks display. Hitting nothing

12. Whilst I am dodging missiles and now extending away NOE to fool their radars, I may have hit one MIG if I was lucky, my wingman is a smoking wreck and there is ALWAYS one of the two MIGS on my 6 ready to deliver my arse to me gift wrapped

Now, I must be doing something wrong here.

Can I launch my second missile before the first goes active?

Where is the second TWS countdown?

Should I launch as soon as I am in RMax range if the target is coming towards me?

Confused.com

[Mig]

Guys

I have watched Ironhands excellent tutorial at Flankertraining.com but can’t get it to work for me. On campaign mission #4, (CAP), my wingman and I come up against two MIG-29’s shortly after takeoff. I follow variations of this procedure.

1. AWACS declares bogeys at 14k, 40 odd miles. Plenty of time there

2. I put targets on nose and start a 25 deg climb to gain height advantage

3. I set my radar range accordingly

4. I level off at about 25k

5. Targets in radar centreline, I set TWS mode and lock both targets up. Don’t want to give them warning and i want to hit both at once

6. As they close, I march my cursor down and adjust ANT ELEV to keep them in the sweet spot of my radar cone.

7. Once I get the ‘little star’ launch cue, I wait a few seconds to let the primary get well within my rMax, then launch the first slammer

8. Now, at this point I get the pit-bull countdown on my radar counting down till the radar becomes self guiding

9. If I launch on the secondary target, the countdown vanishes and I don’t get a second countdown

10. At this point the MIGS are launching so I turn to put them on the beam and get a better look at their missile trajectories

11. My wingman is doing a good impression of a blind man slapping a hippos buttocks right now, just seconds away from being trampled, with missiles going wild and giving the folks on the ground a good but expensive fireworks display. Hitting nothing

12. Whilst I am dodging missiles and now extending away NOE to fool their radars, I may have hit one MIG if I was lucky, my wingman is a smoking wreck and there is ALWAYS one of the two MIGS on my 6 ready to deliver my arse to me gift wrapped

Now, I must be doing something wrong here.

Can I launch my second missile before the first goes active?

Where is the second TWS countdown?

Should I launch as soon as I am in RMax range if the target is coming towards me?

 

Confused.com

 

 

 

 

Same happens to me... and if the radar anomalies where not enough, missiles are very noneffective as well.

 

I took more than a week to pass that particular mission. :joystick:

 

Salute

[104th_Crunch]

"Can I launch my second missile before the first goes active?"

 

Yes, and if the 2 contacts are near the same range, you should do so.

 

"Where is the second TWS countdown?"

 

The countdown is displayed for the last missile fired and the countdown for the previous missile disappears. Theoretically you could manually note the Time To Active for the missile in the air before the second launch, then add this to the new current timer as an estimate. Also, there is a bug when you launch your last AIM120 and it is your only missile left, you get no counter! As well, there is another bug when you have a AIM-120 in the air and the TTA and TTI counters are both reset when TTA is 0 and new numbers for both TTA and TTI appear in mid-flight. The second set of TTA and TTI numbers that pop up are the correct timers.

 

"Should I launch as soon as I am in RMax range if the target is coming towards me?"

 

Depending on the situation, sure you can. It can put the bandit on the defensive and give you an advantage. Also, if the bandit is high and you are high, then Rmax shots have very good chances of hitting.

 

Have a watch of the in game training for the 'tactical break' also know as 'The Crank'. The tactic involves cranking to the left/right of your maximum gimbal limit when a missile is fired at you, you launching at an average between Rmax and Rtr, then continuing the crank. The in game training does not show you however, that you should slow down as well during the crank. The whole purpose is of this maneuver is to give the longest time/distance possible for the bandit's missile to reach you, while if the bandit does not crank, your missile will reach them sooner.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Crunch
clarification

[coolts]

Bugs! Bah, as if we didn’t have enough to worry about. Roll on FC2.

I will look for that training vid although one of the F-15 ones says "1.1 only".

Slow down you say? With an ARH heading for my rear end! Squeaky bum time.

There is another issue with that mission specifically. Even if I get past the MIGS, I am short on ordnance and wingnut is dead. There are still at least 4 x CAS aircraft to get, so its Biggles mode with guns after that. Not the F-15 strength really.

[Fahhh]

Well, to slow down is a good advice... here is basically what I sometimes do with R-77's(doing it with 120s should be not much different). I fire at <=30 km or at the moment he fires at me(whichever happens first), then I crank say left, in the same time i start a steep -35/40 deg dive on idle and with my air-break extended. This way I still got good airspeed, and I am making sure my missile gets to the bandit before his gets to me. I'm also diving into denser air, which slows down the bandit's missiles even more.

 

Doing this properly will assure, you're missiles go active before his, thus allowing you to bank left, pull and extend at full burners and safely evade/outrun his missile, while he is left to deal with yours.

[104th_Crunch]

Doing this properly will assure, you're missiles go active before his, thus allowing you to bank left, pull and extend at full burners and safely evade/outrun his missile, while he is left to deal with yours.

 

Well said Fahhh. With the AIM-120 you use the TTA counter and when it is 0 you are free to break off and go completetly defensive.

[coolts]

Cheers guys. I will dig out my old falcon 4 manual and re-read the tactics bit. All this 'cranking', and 'notching' is a little much to take in, especuially with bitchin' betty, RWW and the assorted alarms going off at the same time. Never a dull moment!

 

Once i get the hang of it and blitz the campaigns i will dip my big toe in the online pond so you guys can hand me my arse all over again! ;>

[coolts]

The TWS countdown bug makes timing "pit-bull" manoeuvres difficult. Only the 1st amraam gives a countdown for me. After that its dead reckoning.

Your advice is working though, (crank, notch, slow dive, timing, etc). Last night I nailed the Fulcrums,(wingman on “cover me” orders so he lasted longer but still bought it), got the Mig27's with sparrows, then came across the godlike and invincible SU25's.

I had 2 x sparrows and 4 x IR’s and they got me. Twice. Am I paranoid or have ED made the Frogfoot way too deadly in FC, (after all it is the star of the show)? They were decoying all my missiles then got me in a dogfight!

Or am I being crap?

[Fahhh]

Well if they got some R-73's in a head to head engagement you're in huge trouble against them. Try firing your sparrows at a closer range, like 9-10 miles, it should be harder for them to decoy them, and also do not attack them in head to head with only AIM-9's left. The 73 has much bigger range and Pk. Try to separate them and attack from safe angles.

[RvEYoda]

Im surprised you found mission 4 a trouble when you got through mission 2.

I find F15 mission 2 is possibly the most difficult of all of them.

 

What you are up against in Mission 4 I believe are 2 Mig29A models, so they will not

be equiped with R77s or ETs ( unlike mission #2 ) . The worst you will face are R27s.

 

First, as soon as you detect them, call your wingman to engage bandits or a specific bandit.

If you tell him to engage a specific bandit , you should focus 100 on the other one unless

your AI wingman decides to bail out before the fight starts ( wont happen ).

 

What is your payload, 2 Aim120 or 4 Aim120 ?

It can be advantageous to not try to fly so very high. The missiles' weak points in the final

seconds before impact are the seekers, so focus on that in the beginning before you think

about energy.

 

Think about flying level altitude with the targets and launching perhaps 20 nm out at most,

you should have virtually twice the range of the R27s on those migs, so dont worry about that. Dont fire before getting about half way between Rmax and Rtr, and if you see the

bandit breaking off, try going STT to maximize yoru chances to keeping him on radar

[RedTiger]

Its been a while since I've played at all, and I cannot remember if I ever did the F-15 campaign, I was never really a fan of those. So excuse me if I give you some information here that doesn't work so well with however that mission is set up.

 

In addition to what Yoda contributed, consider this:

 

1. Giving your wingman the "pincer right/left" command is a pretty standard way to separate bandits for an easier sort. It should also force them to split up and each to focus on one of you. Once in a rare occassion the AI seems to ignore this and just double team you or the AI. If they double team you, you can play some aggressive defense and hopefully put them on the defensive enough while you order your wingman to swing back towards you and attack them. If they double team the AI, be aggressive and use their distraction to your advantage.

 

I like to keep my F-15 wingman's radar on throughout because the F-15s RWR provides such good situational awareness.

 

2. If those MiGs are using R-27s, keep in mind that if they try to notch you, their missiles become expensive lawn darts. And they will...oh boy, will they ever! The AI in LO has super-human notching capability. The problem is that this is the only trick they know. With a little practice, you can keep them on the defensive the entire time. Even if they fire back, they'll go back to notch and lose the lock. They key is that you must stay below them so their notching doesn't work! As soon as you launch you should start making your way down below them.

 

3. Keep the other part of this in mind too; if YOU notch THEM, their missiles go dumb as soon as they lose their lock. The idea here is that if you are armed with Aim-120s, you can launch, crank and hit the deck, and then as soon as it goes active -- notch the bandit. Now he can't see you, can't shoot at you, AND he has a missile to evade.

 

This can become so routine that it is boring (hence the draw of multiplayer). A good mission, however, shouldn't be so sterile and give you other things to worry about. I'm not sure what exactly is in this mission your playing, but keep that in mind. "Hitting the deck" maybe isn't such a good idea if you happen to be flying over a tank battle or a well defended town full of guys armed with Iglas, for example ;) That can make things a little more dicey.

[coolts]

Stay below them? Everything i've been told refers to maintianing a height advantage before entering ACM. Is this just to prevent their "notching" from fooling my radar?

[104th_Crunch]

Yes, to prevent notching your radar. Stay high at first to launch your missiles, then drop down to maitain lock if required.

[coolts]

Yes, to prevent notching your radar. Stay high at first to launch your missiles, then drop down to maitain lock if required.

 

Sneaky. I like it. Wil try tomorrow night.:thumbup:

[RedTiger]

Yes, the challenge is to launch high and then get below them before they start to notch you. This is all very predictable after a while. Note that the *second* that slammer goes pitbull, the bandit quickly turns away and notches. If it seems like the AI has a gods-eye view of the action and knows exactly where that missile is, well, I'm not so sure that isn't exactly what the AI has.

 

The main problem with him notching you at this point is that he'll turn back toward you, lock up, and launch immediately. There's the super AI again, they seem to not have to fiddle with their radar like we do, its all instantaneous. Chances are it might be quicker than you can do the same. Now you're forced to go defensive! Not only that, chances are you're above him and can't notch him. Dive, spew chaff, maneuver to hopefully drag that missile around a bit and hope for the best.

 

After awhile, in a sterile 1v1 vs. you in an F-15 and the AI in a MiG-29A, you should practically never lose. You will force the poor MiG defensive and keep him there, all of his missiles will sail harmlessly past you because he can't keep a lock, and eventually one of your Aim-120s or Aim-9s will find its mark. This is why as someone who likes to play singleplayer, practically the only plane I would fly before my hiatus was the MiG-29A or MiG-29G. The F-15C was reserved for some very "busy" missions I created with the old LO mission randomizer and the later random mission generator someone around here created.

Edited February 11, 2010 by RedTiger